Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Mike Caviston
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Re: Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

Post by Mike Caviston » July 22nd, 2022, 1:45 pm

Stefano wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 6:35 am
I really like the constructive comparison, do you have a different idea about strenghth training for distance runners?
I have always been a proponent of minimalism in strength training, and spend the minimal time lifting that provides benefits while leaving more time for running, rowing and other activities. I perform only two sets per week of a variety of exercises that develop balance across muscle groups (e.g., hamstring-quads) and specifically target the problems that commonly limit runners (knee pain, shin pain, ankle sprains, and core stability). Bench, squat, and dead lift don’t address these very well and in fact often exacerbate the problems. The priority in running is not developing power for propulsion off the ground (are you going to leap across the landscape like the Incredible Hulk?); the priority is to develop the ability to absorb the impact of your body returning to earth after every stride. Even more so if you run on hilly or uneven courses. There are a lot of popular books on strength training that promote ideas that are not supported by research (such as multijoint exercises being superior to single joint exercises, or that free weights are superior to machines - don’t limit yourself, use them all). Don’t be swayed by an example of a single marathoner who trained with only dead lift and bench press; try to find true comparisons with a broad sample of runners that compare strength training using the “big 3” lifts with other programs (or no strength training).

Stefano
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Re: Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

Post by Stefano » July 22nd, 2022, 3:35 pm

Mike Caviston wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 1:45 pm
I have always been a proponent of minimalism in strength training, and spend the minimal time lifting that provides benefits while leaving more time for running, rowing and other activities. I perform only two sets per week of a variety of exercises that develop balance across muscle groups (e.g., hamstring-quads) and specifically target the problems that commonly limit runners (knee pain, shin pain, ankle sprains, and core stability). Bench, squat, and dead lift don’t address these very well and in fact often exacerbate the problems. The priority in running is not developing power for propulsion off the ground (are you going to leap across the landscape like the Incredible Hulk?); the priority is to develop the ability to absorb the impact of your body returning to earth after every stride. Even more so if you run on hilly or uneven courses. There are a lot of popular books on strength training that promote ideas that are not supported by research (such as multijoint exercises being superior to single joint exercises, or that free weights are superior to machines - don’t limit yourself, use them all). Don’t be swayed by an example of a single marathoner who trained with only dead lift and bench press; try to find true comparisons with a broad sample of runners that compare strength training using the “big 3” lifts with other programs (or no strength training).
Very interesting and I agree with you in many parts:
there are many myths in the fitness community and still little scientific evidence other than the usual refrain "lifting weights improves running economy". It would be useful to use a large-scale experimental approach on a representative sample of runners to find out if there is really a certain correlation between specific strength training protocols and an improvement in performance on the road. I must admit that I am also a bit of a victim of the great myth that Squat and Deadlift with Barbell are the solution for everything.

If you had to choose 2 or 3 strength exercises at the most that, in your experience, are the most useful for injury prevention and benefit on the technical gesture of running, what would you choose?

btlifter
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Re: Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

Post by btlifter » July 22nd, 2022, 5:44 pm

To offer a counterperspective to Mike:

More strength surrounding the knee and the hip will - all else being equal - produce faster movement. This is obviously more pronounced when sprinting than when running a marathon, and is more pronounced on the row erg than when running, generally.

We have a pretty good idea that some variation of the squat and/or some variation of a hip hinge (deadlift) are very efficient and effective ways for building this strength. In most cases, more so than any alternative to which I am familiar.

With that in mind, I see little reason to utilize alternatives, for the sake of performance. Injury prevention is a separat issue... but by and large the research to which I have been exposed is pretty skeptical of the ability of generalized strengthening as being a useful injury-prevention strategy (save for specific Imbalances/existing injuries).
chop stuff and carry stuff

Tsnor
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Re: Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

Post by Tsnor » July 22nd, 2022, 8:13 pm

Don't rule out strength training improving endurance performance.

Strength training directly improves performance in long races.

Studies cited in this video seem conclusive. Starting here at 3:20 in: https://youtu.be/V88wwTCs680?t=200 The studies have links in the description if you want to cross check. I've found the speaker accurately portrays the research and does not cherry pick.

Results like improved 40 minute performance based on changes in muscle fiber proportion, improvements in the neural behavior and less muscles fibers working at cross purposes. Results apply to trained and elite athletes. Strength training may also provide a larger endurance gain for older athletes. More info here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U11QNOq0npg

Mike Caviston
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Re: Most Beneficial Rowing Workouts for a Runner

Post by Mike Caviston » July 22nd, 2022, 9:20 pm

Stefano wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 3:35 pm
If you had to choose 2 or 3 strength exercises at the most that, in your experience, are the most useful for injury prevention and benefit on the technical gesture of running, what would you choose
I wouldn’t limit myself to 2 or 3 exercises, but I would do 1 set of 15 exercises rather than 5 sets of 3 exercises. Common running injuries are well-documented, as are exercises to rehab or better yet prehab them. I like hamstring curls and knee extensions that emphasize negative (eccentric) contractions, such as lifting a weight up (concentric) with both legs then lowering the same weight (eccentric) with one leg (15-20 eccentric contractions per leg for each exercise). I like dorsiflexion against resistance (such as an elastic band), balance exercises (such as one foot on a BOSU) to work muscles in the foot/ankle and hip, and exercises that target the lateral hip (such as hip abduction with a cable machine). Also core exercises such as front and side planks.
btlifter wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 5:44 pm
More strength surrounding the knee and the hip will - all else being equal - produce faster movement. This is obviously more pronounced when sprinting than when running a marathon, and is more pronounced on the row erg than when running, generally.
But the OP asked specifically about running a marathon, so...
btlifter wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 5:44 pm
We have a pretty good idea that some variation of the squat and/or some variation of a hip hinge (deadlift) are very efficient and effective ways for building this strength. In most cases, more so than any alternative to which I am familiar.
Which strength? Knee extension, certainly. Hip extension, somewhat. Hamstrings? Not in proportion to quads. What about ankle flexion/extension, foot adduction/abduction, hip abduction and rotation? Go ahead and do squats and dead lifts, just not exclusively.
Tsnor wrote:
July 22nd, 2022, 8:13 pm
Don't rule out strength training improving endurance performance.
Who ruled it out? Everyone on this thread has agreed that strength training is desirable; the discussion is which exercises actually enhance running performance. Does your video that generically advocates strength training for cycling confirm performing only bench press, squat, and dead lift to prepare for running a marathon?

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