Low stroke rate training

[ampire]

I'm a fan of rowing ≤20 for most workouts. I've found I can get fast quickly doing faster pieces but rate locked. I did a lot of workouts last summer at R20 and 200 watt and got good results, did a 8x500M at 1:45/500 R30 back in August or September which should be a 7:00 2K. I also injured my ulnar nerves after that and never had a chance to test. I had surgery to repair it recently, so I am not sure when I'll be back to that pacing. I don't know that there's value going under R18. If you train too frequently at low ratings it might be hard to do sprints.

[Mike Caviston]

Slower pace allows a slower drive. So it changes everything.

The drive time is not appreciably different at different rates or paces due to the relationship between velocity and drag. The mechanics of rowing at 16 spm are the same for paces from 2:00-2:30 [though that seems like an unrealistically wide range of paces for a single rate; for more than 25 years as my 2K has ranged from about 6:20 to 6:50, I've only rowed between 2:00-2:15 at 16spm for any type of workout, including warm-up].

If you train too frequently at low ratings it might be hard to do sprints.

No. If you never practice sprints it will be hard to do sprints. All the low-rate rowing in the world won't interfere with top-end speed.

[Carl Watts]

My advice is that most people will find low rates a no go.

It very much depends on your height and pace and the actual rating. You need ErgData for the total stroke count or else your kidding yourself.

Highly unlikely that 16spm is a continuous fluid motion. My lowest rating distance training pace row for last season was 15.3spm and the pause is noticeable at that pace.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log/62839179

[Mike Caviston]

My advice is that most people will find low rates a no go.

Duly noted. My advice is to ignore your advice. Why do you argue so vigorously with people who have way more experience with low rates than you? I have personally used it for decades. I have personally coached hundreds of athletes to use low rates. The results have validated the training.

It very much depends on your height and pace and the actual rating. You need ErgData for the total stroke count or else your kidding yourself.

It doesn't depend on height or pace or rating. I have coached 60 or more athletes at a time, of various sizes and abilities, all following the same rate progressions shifting between 16-24 spm. They can stay in synch and row with the same technique even though the individual paces vary considerably. Nobody has to count strokes; simply react and adjust to the ratings displayed on the monitor. As with anything else, consistency improves with practice.

Highly unlikely that 16spm is a continuous fluid motion. My lowest rating distance training pace row for last season was 15.3spm and the pause is noticeable at that pace.

You must have a pretty high opinion of your own rowing ability. You think that because you can't do something, no one else can? As I said, I have no trouble with low rates and have personally witnessed hundreds of athletes rowing smoothly and continuously at low rates with no trouble.

[Carl Watts]

Probably not a whole load of "Athletes" on here for starters. Above average for my age but wouldn't consider myself an "Athlete" by any stretch. My opinion is based on personal experience over the years and observation of other rowers online. If you look at your average rower then 16spm doesn't happen let alone worrying about a pause or no pause. 17spm is pretty much the cutoff for me for what feels like a fluid motion and many I row with cannot hack sub 20spm as their pace begins to blow out significantly and it's hard to break the everything is a race mentally and just switch to a training pace that permits lower stroke rates and watch the heartrate to cap it in a UT1 or UT2 band and not worry about the resulting pace.

[GlennUk]

Experience tends to suggest that doing something you find difficult regularly is likley to enable you to do it better in the future.

The benefits of low rate rowing exercise appear to be well established as far as i can tell, so i am unsure why anyone would avoid doing something which is likley to improve their racing performance for want of practice.

As for pace, i have a set of weights in my gym, not particularly large (but then again neither am i) and when trying a new exercise i would use light weights to learn the right technique.

If someone decides to try low rates but attempts to maintain their 'fast pace' at those rates perhaps they should have it pointed out that one needs to practice to a) be able to low rates consistently, and b) that with practice their strength and stamina will improve, pace will follow.

Happy to be corrected.

P.S. oddly perhaps, i do consider myself to be an 'athlete'. Many of my peers find difficulty getting out of bed and putting their sock on!
I regularly exercise, i follow a training programme and try to achieve the best times i can over whatever distance i am erging. One doesn't have to be a world champ to be an 'athlete'.

athlete, noun, a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise (OED)

Each to their own of course.

[Carl Watts]

Slugging away on your rower in the basement all on your own is mentally totally different to online rowing with others and that is the key difference.

My observation over the years is that it's almost impossible for others to stick to a "Plan" or even commit to something before the start.

People are capable of low rate rowing but 16spm is brutal and it totally stuffs your pace if all you do is 26som. Mentally people refuse to do it if it means you come last. Sounds pretty strange but that's just the way it is.

I have been pushing to get your rating displayed live on screen for years so others can clearly see your in a different "Gear" and are rowing with a different objective and perhaps that will help. It's the same problem with age to a degree when people feel the need to let everyone know their age to help explain why they are slower. The dynamics shift if your not doing your own thing and start involving others every single time you row.

[jamesg]

If rate control Is difficult sculling, try kayak: the harder we pull, the higher the rating. There's no rest with the blades in the air: which is what the sculler has to manage.

[GlennUk]

Slugging away on your rower in the basement all on your own is mentally totally different to online rowing with others and that is the key difference.

My observation over the years is that it's almost impossible for others to stick to a "Plan" or even commit to something before the start.

People are capable of low rate rowing but 16spm is brutal and it totally stuffs your pace if all you do is 26som. Mentally people refuse to do it if it means you come last. Sounds pretty strange but that's just the way it is.

Each to their own, i 'slug away in my basement' and have been following a training plan since Feb 2021 consistently.

It does not require rating at 16spm, but does large portions at 18spm-20spm HR limited over sessions of 45-210mins, ideally all conducted at 18spm. When i started it was alien to stroke at those rates for such periods, now its just what i do (probably not in much style, )

I have never looked at the wolverine plan seriously but I am looking for new challenges when i have completed this latest round of the plan I'm following, i see no reason why i should not look at it and rate at 16spm, I do expect to have to practice to get used to such rates.

It will no doubt impact on pace initially, but now i find i can maintain (what for me is) a reasonable pace over long periods at 18spm consistently.

Perhaps the people who refuse to do it, are a bit like the people who refuse to accept that trying to PB every sessions is unlikely to yield the biggest benefits in terms of performance, medium to long term.

It may not suit everyone, but it does not mean it does not have merit and does suit others.

[Carl Watts]

Give an actual 16spm row or slower a try and post the logbook result.

Pretty interested in an actual result from anyone who is reading this.

[Dangerscouse]

Perhaps the people who refuse to do it, are a bit like the people who refuse to accept that trying to PB every sessions is unlikely to yield the biggest benefits in terms of performance, medium to long term.

It may not suit everyone, but it does not mean it does not have merit and does suit others.

Imo, I think it's either because it can be a humbling experience, and people don't like to feel like they're regressing, and / or it's fairly common for advice to be not to drop below r18. I certainly have advocated it, although not totally excluded it as an option.

It can give potential for more injury, but I totally agree that it's not something to dismiss as pointless. I'm very open to new ideas, and progress for humankind is only made by the unreasonable person who refuses to accept on face value that the usual strategy is always the only way.

If you'd told me a few years ago that I'd be rowing strapless for the vast majority of my session I'd have laughed and said no chance.

[Tony Cook]

Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it.
I only go sub 20 as part of a Wolverine L4 session. When I started I thought there was no way I could get used to that. Then, as with most things, a little perseverance and practice and it all becomes ‘easier’.
For one reason or another I’ve not been on the erg much and last week decided to do a 40 min L4 session - 172,176,172,176, which was a lot less than I was doing last year for 60’. Mixes of 16,18 and 20 SPM for 2’ at a time and pace of 2:05, 2:01 and 1:57. I know I’ve lost fitness but was surprised that I was unable to meet the target metres in sets 3 and 4.
For me the low rate training really builds drive strength - and I have to get that back.
It takes concentration to row smoothly at 16/18 and I do it by making sure I do 4 strokes each 15 secs or 3 strokes every 10 secs. Making sure there is no pause. When I started had to pause for less than one second before starting my next stroke, so each set of 4 stroke began at 00,15,30 or 45 secs on the clock but within a few weeks I found there I rarely had to do this. You just get a feel for the right speed to return up the slide.

[GlennUk]

Give an actual 16spm row or slower a try and post the logbook result.

Pretty interested in an actual result from anyone who is reading this.

Happy to when i/if i decide to pick up on the Wolverine plan (or any plan that includes such rates).

But i would expect the pace to drop so i am not entirely sure what the point is you are making?

Like Dangerscouse, I would have laughed at the potential for me to erg for 2.5 hours at R18 at a 'reasonable' pace before i followed this plan. Now its part of the training routine.

[GlennUk]

It takes concentration to row smoothly at 16/18 and I do it by making sure I do 4 strokes each 15 secs or 3 strokes every 10 secs. Making sure there is no pause. When I started had to pause for less than one second before starting my next stroke, so each set of 4 stroke began at 00,15,30 or 45 secs on the clock but within a few weeks I found there I rarely had to do this. You just get a feel for the right speed to return up the slide.

Ditto this

[ampire]

What do you guys think of rowing on sliders with low rate? Personally I find it more challenging to rate low on sliders, while conversely rowing at higher rates is easier on sliders.