Figuring out the right drag factor

[iain]

Higher drag shifts some of the effort to upper body so preferable for those with stronger upper bodies. Also moves fatigue from CV to muscular endurance.

[Tsnor]

Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier?

1. You pull some wicked fast times
2. Stroke RATE will get your attention on the water. At your power level you're looking at base rates in the high 30s and starts/sprints maybe hitting 40-46. Single maybe 4 spm less than an 8. Lightweight = shorter= higher rates IMO. Faster stroke rates seem easier on the water than on an erg, but they are still something that you need to prep for.
3. DRAG FACTOR (like 120) will not be important at all on the water. Timing your stroke to the rest of the boat will be important. Your boat shape, wind and currents will set the drag, and its not adjustable. It will change day to day and even minute to minute. Its not something you will even think about. You just choose how long a stroke and how hard to pull to get the timing right.

[iain]

Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier?

1. You pull some wicked fast times
2. Stroke RATE will get your attention on the water. At your power level you're looking at base rates in the high 30s and starts/sprints maybe hitting 40-46. Single maybe 4 spm less than an 8. Lightweight = shorter= higher rates IMO. Faster stroke rates seem easier on the water than on an erg, but they are still something that you need to prep for.
3. DRAG FACTOR (like 120) will not be important at all on the water. Timing your stroke to the rest of the boat will be important. Your boat shape, wind and currents will set the drag, and its not adjustable. It will change day to day and even minute to minute. Its not something you will even think about. You just choose how long a stroke and how hard to pull to get the timing right.

If your question was will 120 on the erg feel easier, will depend upon the boat you are rowing (including the weight in it) and who you are rowing with. If your stroke is longer than others then that is equivalent to a higher drag, while the drag of the boat is set by its physical drag divided by the number of people pulling. If you row an old style pair then the drag is high, while a modern shell 4- will be much lighter.

[frankencrank]

Hey everyone,

I’m trying to figure out drag factor for myself. I started erging back in July on an old model B. Pulled a 6:54 on my 3rd erg. Drag factor was unknown but it was probably very high. Got on a model D in august and trained around 130 and pulled a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging. Then I found out 130 may be a bit high for a lightweight. On 130 I pulled a 3:14 1000 at “2k effort” and was able to rate high late October. Ended up going down to 120. Ended up pulling a 6:45 with a bad positive split in November. In December I started training lower at 110-112 and started pulling very well. I hit all my pbs but had trouble getting down lower. But then I raced worlds and blew up big. I have tried training back up at 120 because I need to test at that drag factor but I find if I train a week at that drag my shoulders and forearms gets so fatigued I lose all strength. I was an ex swimmer so that might be the issue with some shoulder injuries.


Anyways, I find now I can get close to the times at lower drag compared to a higher drag except for mid rate work. I can do 6k work at closer to 26-27R at 1:45 compared to 28-29 at 105. But then I can pull 20k @ 22R 1:56 at 105 and 120 and the 105 feels so much easier. Any insight at all? Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag or if anyone has had a similar experience? I’m relatively new to erging and rowing but I expected big things after pulling a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging.

This should be pretty simple to figure out. Spend some time at a power somewhat less than your race effort (so fatigue isn't an issue) and then look at HR at various drag factors (it should take no more than a couple of minutes to stabilize). What you are looking for is the drag factor that gives you the lowest HR at the power you desire (everything else being the same). You can do this regularly as it may change some as your fitness changes.

[frankencrank]

Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier?

1. You pull some wicked fast times
2. Stroke RATE will get your attention on the water. At your power level you're looking at base rates in the high 30s and starts/sprints maybe hitting 40-46. Single maybe 4 spm less than an 8. Lightweight = shorter= higher rates IMO. Faster stroke rates seem easier on the water than on an erg, but they are still something that you need to prep for.
3. DRAG FACTOR (like 120) will not be important at all on the water. Timing your stroke to the rest of the boat will be important. Your boat shape, wind and currents will set the drag, and its not adjustable. It will change day to day and even minute to minute. Its not something you will even think about. You just choose how long a stroke and how hard to pull to get the timing right.

Drag factor (the resistance the oar gives at any given force) is adjustable on th water. Moving where the oar sets in the oar lock is (shorter distance to handle, longer distance to blade) is the same as increasing ergometer drag factor.

[jackarabit]

Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier?

1. You pull some wicked fast times
2. Stroke RATE will get your attention on the water. At your power level you're looking at base rates in the high 30s and starts/sprints maybe hitting 40-46. Single maybe 4 spm less than an 8. Lightweight = shorter= higher rates IMO. Faster stroke rates seem easier on the water than on an erg, but they are still something that you need to prep for.
3. DRAG FACTOR (like 120) will not be important at all on the water. Timing your stroke to the rest of the boat will be important. Your boat shape, wind and currents will set the drag, and its not adjustable. It will change day to day and even minute to minute. Its not something you will even think about. You just choose how long a stroke and how hard to pull to get the timing right.

Drag factor (the resistance the oar gives at any given force) is adjustable on th water. Moving where the oar sets in the oar lock is (shorter distance to handle, longer distance to blade) is the same as increasing ergometer drag factor.

Ratio of length of segment of oar shaft inboard of lock to length of segment outboard (determined by placement of shaft collar) is not “drag” at a physical interface but is an attempt to choose the best combo of frequency and amplitude of repeated eforts addressed at overcoming drag. It’s called gearing or gear ratio, a reaction to drag forces rather than an equivalent thereof.

[frankencrank]

1. You pull some wicked fast times
2. Stroke RATE will get your attention on the water. At your power level you're looking at base rates in the high 30s and starts/sprints maybe hitting 40-46. Single maybe 4 spm less than an 8. Lightweight = shorter= higher rates IMO. Faster stroke rates seem easier on the water than on an erg, but they are still something that you need to prep for.
3. DRAG FACTOR (like 120) will not be important at all on the water. Timing your stroke to the rest of the boat will be important. Your boat shape, wind and currents will set the drag, and its not adjustable. It will change day to day and even minute to minute. Its not something you will even think about. You just choose how long a stroke and how hard to pull to get the timing right.

Drag factor (the resistance the oar gives at any given force) is adjustable on th water. Moving where the oar sets in the oar lock is (shorter distance to handle, longer distance to blade) is the same as increasing ergometer drag factor.

Ratio of length of segment of oar shaft inboard of lock to length of segment outboard (determined by placement of shaft collar) is not “drag at a physical interface but is an attempt to choose the best combo of frequency and amplitude of repeated eforts addressed at overcoming drag. It’s called gearing or gear ratio.

And, it is "the same" as "drag factor" on the ergometer. One can use the ergometer to figure out where the leverage point of the oar is best placed for you for optimizing performance on the water.

addendum: How many people here take advantage of this ergometer feature? My guess is the number is very close to zero.

[jackarabit]

Is NOT fun!
Is SO fun!
SO NOT CARING!

[Tsnor]

Drag factor (the resistance the oar gives at any given force) is adjustable on th water. Moving where the oar sets in the oar lock is (shorter distance to handle, longer distance to blade) is the same as increasing ergometer drag factor.

Yes you are correct, You can move the collar on the oar, add spacers etc. You can also move from a 2 to a 4 or an 8 which will change the rowing drag factor. You can also compare starts (huge oar resistance) to steady state (much lower oar resistance). So yes you can adjust DF on the water. This paper gives some results: http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2011_files ... omNews.pdf

No, (and this may just be me because I am not an expert) I don't think at all about DF while OTW rowing or preparing to row. The OTW DF is what it is and is not something you adjust either before launching or while on the water. Compare that with stroke rates which are discussed. Compare again with an erg where you should set DF on any erg you do not know.

OP asked "Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag" The net answer is "with all the other stuff going on OTW you will not think about drag factor."

"..On-water rowers use the machine with a drag factor range of 125 to 140 or damper level 3 to 5. The reason for this is that at this level the feel is closest to that of a racing boat which makes the training rowing specific..." which implies they believe that OTW rowing is in the range of 125-140, not something in a much larger range like erg DF.

"...Case in point, Crew team members often complete their erg training at a drag factor between 115 and 125 to most accurately simulate the resistance of water. ..." ditto.

[frankencrank]

Drag factor (the resistance the oar gives at any given force) is adjustable on th water. Moving where the oar sets in the oar lock is (shorter distance to handle, longer distance to blade) is the same as increasing ergometer drag factor.

Yes you are correct, You can move the collar on the oar, add spacers etc. You can also move from a 2 to a 4 or an 8 which will change the rowing drag factor. You can also compare starts (huge oar resistance) to steady state (much lower oar resistance). So yes you can adjust DF on the water. This paper gives some results: http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2011_files ... omNews.pdf

No, (and this may just be me because I am not an expert) I don't think at all about DF while OTW rowing or preparing to row. The OTW DF is what it is and is not something you adjust either before launching or while on the water. Compare that with stroke rates which are discussed. Compare again with an erg where you should set DF on any erg you do not know.

OP asked "Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag" The net answer is "with all the other stuff going on OTW you will not think about drag factor."

"..On-water rowers use the machine with a drag factor range of 125 to 140 or damper level 3 to 5. The reason for this is that at this level the feel is closest to that of a racing boat which makes the training rowing specific..." which implies they believe that OTW rowing is in the range of 125-140, not something in a much larger range like erg DF.

"...Case in point, Crew team members often complete their erg training at a drag factor between 115 and 125 to most accurately simulate the resistance of water. ..." ditto.

Thanks for the paper. I am printing it out and will take a look at it.

If you are rowing on the water you ought to be thinking about the oar speed. My guess is most adjust the drag factor of the ergometer to feel like the water experience (what you said). One can check to see if they are similar by doing videos and comparing the drive time on the water and on the ergometer. However, if you do testing on the ergometer and find out a higher or lower slide/drive time gives you more power then you should adjust the lever point on your oar to give you a similar time on the water and you could expect to see the same power increase. It is that simple. You will get used to the new drag factor, whatever it is.

Might I also suggest that if something "feels easier" it is probably so because it is less powerful unless you have stumbled upon something that makes you more efficient.

[Tsnor]

Thanks for the paper. I am printing it out and will take a look at it.

If you are rowing on the water you ought to be thinking about the oar speed. My guess is most adjust the drag factor of the ergometer to feel like the water experience (what you said). One can check to see if they are similar by doing videos and comparing the drive time on the water and on the ergometer. However, if you do testing on the ergometer and find out a higher or lower slide/drive time gives you more power then you should adjust the lever point on your oar to give you a similar time on the water and you could expect to see the same power increase. It is that simple. You will get used to the new drag factor, whatever it is.

Might I also suggest that if something "feels easier" it is probably so because it is less powerful unless you have stumbled upon something that makes you more efficient.

"If you are rowing on the water you ought to be thinking about the oar speed."

I row mostly 4s and 8s. I do think a lot about oar speed, but unless I am stroke all of my thoughts are "how the heck do I get a long drive and still arrive at the finish at the same time as the stroke". If you get to the finish early or late the boat rocks like crazy -- the oars have to come out together. It gets really complicated as rower height varies... you need to adjust your oar speed / slide speed on both drive and recovery to get the same drive/recovery elapsed time despite different drive lengths. You can't just row at the speed of the person ahead of you. Our women have their oar collars set differently to help with this in a mixed/co-ed shell. I suspect that the adjustments you reference could be used to fix this if individual rowers had their own oars and the boats used the same rowers in the same seats each time. Ours oars are all sets hanging on the wall, and you grab a different oar each time.

Agree that in a Single this is a non-problem. Also suspect that really strong OTW rowers do exactly what you said to balance power and stroke style in a boat. As power measuring oar locks become common this will be a key competitive topic (vs inspecting puddles).

re: "if something "feels easier" it is probably so because it is less powerful unless you have stumbled upon something that makes you more efficient." Great test. This is why it's so fun to watch the split time improve when you don't over-reach at the catch. It's both easier and faster.

[frankencrank]

Thanks for the paper. I am printing it out and will take a look at it.

If you are rowing on the water you ought to be thinking about the oar speed. My guess is most adjust the drag factor of the ergometer to feel like the water experience (what you said). One can check to see if they are similar by doing videos and comparing the drive time on the water and on the ergometer. However, if you do testing on the ergometer and find out a higher or lower slide/drive time gives you more power then you should adjust the lever point on your oar to give you a similar time on the water and you could expect to see the same power increase. It is that simple. You will get used to the new drag factor, whatever it is.

Might I also suggest that if something "feels easier" it is probably so because it is less powerful unless you have stumbled upon something that makes you more efficient.

"If you are rowing on the water you ought to be thinking about the oar speed."

I row mostly 4s and 8s. I do think a lot about oar speed, but unless I am stroke all of my thoughts are "how the heck do I get a long drive and still arrive at the finish at the same time as the stroke". If you get to the finish early or late the boat rocks like crazy -- the oars have to come out together. It gets really complicated as rower height varies... you need to adjust your oar speed / slide speed on both drive and recovery to get the same drive/recovery elapsed time despite different drive lengths. You can't just row at the speed of the person ahead of you. Our women have their oar collars set differently to help with this in a mixed/co-ed shell. I suspect that the adjustments you reference could be used to fix this if individual rowers had their own oars and the boats used the same rowers in the same seats each time. Ours oars are all sets hanging on the wall, and you grab a different oar each time.

As I have thought about this I think this is a coaching problem. The coach should be looking at the slide time of the optimized stroke and then adjusting the lever point of the oars on the rest of the crew as befits their height and strength to be similar. This is not something the oarsman should have to be thinking about.

Agree that in a Single this is a non-problem. Also suspect that really strong OTW rowers do exactly what you said to balance power and stroke style in a boat. As power measuring oar locks become common this will be a key competitive topic (vs inspecting puddles).

Not sure power measuring oar locks will make any difference. There is simply zero scientific evidence that measuring power on a bicycle make any racing difference but "everybody" does it. Well, not everybody, a few world champs don't. Might be useful for post race analysis.

re: "if something "feels easier" it is probably so because it is less powerful unless you have stumbled upon something that makes you more efficient." Great test. This is why it's so fun to watch the split time improve when you don't over-reach at the catch. It's both easier and faster.

Technique matters. In cycling the mantra is "just push harder." Those people rarely win.