Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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hjs
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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by hjs » February 27th, 2011, 6:37 am

aharmer wrote:Greetings, I have very limited time to respond right now but will join this conversation again later. I used the Maffetone method for a few years when I was running ultramarathons. His formula had me running far too intensely, because my max HR is lower than average for somebody my age. Eventually I took a range of 65-70% of my max HR and used that. Maybe you fall into this group as well if your target HR has you working very hard. This was fairly common among the group I corresponded with.

Doing Maffetone properly can be extremely frustrating. In the running community many people found themselves having to jog extremely slowly and even walk to remain under the target HR. When I started my running pace was over 10:00/mile. A couple years later I was running at 7:30 or faster with the same HR and similar conditions. It definitely works for those running marathons or longer, where glycogen reserves are a major factor and fat utilization is useful. How it correlates to improved 2k erg performance I have no idea, but the increases mitocondria and capillary volume certainly cannot hurt.

Must go but will return later to discuss...fascinating topic in my opinion.
This method ignores the fact that the individual max heart rate varies a lot, a person can easily have a max 15 beats above or below the 180 minus age rule. Ignoring this individual max can't be good.

http://www.fitvandaag.com/Maximum-heart ... lisch.html

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by hjs » February 27th, 2011, 6:48 am

Cayenne wrote:
However, this morning, to reach the MAF numbers, (for me, 119-129,) I was attaining SPM in the mid-30s to as high as low-40s. (Which I would characterize, as "spinning" as opposed to a power/relax characterization of a lower SPM.)
You are without a doubt using a very ineffective technique, you see this a lot in every gym, most people use a very high strokerate using a very easy stroke. Going like a bunny up and down the rail. :wink:
The most common error is not finishing the stroke, but somewhere halfway, breaking the legs and instead of pulling the handle, letting the body come to the handle and thus getting a very short soft, slow stroke.

What should you do?

Try to keep excelerating the handle during the hole stroke and don't bend the legs before the hole stroke is done and the hands are back over the knees.
It's legs, backswing, arms all moving away from the flywheel. If you do this you will easily decreese you stroke rate and also easily get your hartrate up.

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Cayenne » February 27th, 2011, 8:03 am

Thank you HJS ! Your advice is consistent with Kevin's. I will most certainly be incorporating it into my practice.

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by mikvan52 » February 27th, 2011, 8:58 am

May I chime in with a suggestion that I believe carries on hjs' ideas:

Think about concentrating on the connection between your foot pads (the footstretcher) and the handle.

So many of us are, instead, "on the seat". In effect: power is lost grinding the rail instead of transferring force to the handle and sprocket.

Some might ask: "How do I know the difference?": There is a lightness in feeling under your butt. It feels like you are not really sitting very securely on the seat.
How do you achieve this "easily"?: It takes patience and many-many sessions.
For me: I drop the drag (96-107 df) so I am not tempted to "anchor haul" and I row at 16-18 spm for quite a while.
Many consider this to be dreary and "not a workout" but it's effective.
By easy erging I drop my average pace 4-5 seconds per 500m. This effectiveness, achieve w/o effort transfers to what one later does at race pace... by habituation... :idea:

It got me two hammers at WIRC. A 2-time Olympic silver medalist told me about this ===> Tom Bohrer

Keep in mind that US Nat'l team (hwts too(!)) now train on slides at this low drag...
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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Leo Young » February 27th, 2011, 9:57 pm

I'd strongly suggest that using Dr Maffetone's formula, or for that matter, any other formula that uses age as a variable.

Individual max heart can vary by as much as 45 beats or more, above and below age predicted max HR; that's a variance range of more than 90 beats.

Add to that the fact that at any given max heart, HR at the anaerobic threshold or even max steady state lactate threshold, can vary by more than 50% (in relative terms) between indivduals.

Makes the whole process pretty pointless.

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by hjs » February 28th, 2011, 4:50 am

Leo Young wrote:I'd strongly suggest that using Dr Maffetone's formula, or for that matter, any other formula that uses age as a variable.

Individual max heart can vary by as much as 45 beats or more, above and below age predicted max HR; that's a variance range of more than 90 beats.

Add to that the fact that at any given max heart, HR at the anaerobic threshold or even max steady state lactate threshold, can vary by more than 50% (in relative terms) between indivduals.

Makes the whole process pretty pointless.
I didn't want to put it that strong, but this was my thinking also. :wink:

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Cayenne » February 28th, 2011, 7:25 am

Leo Young wrote:I'd strongly suggest that using Dr Maffetone's formula, or for that matter, any other formula that uses age as a variable.

Individual max heart can vary by as much as 45 beats or more, above and below age predicted max HR; that's a variance range of more than 90 beats.

Add to that the fact that at any given max heart, HR at the anaerobic threshold or even max steady state lactate threshold, can vary by more than 50% (in relative terms) between indivduals.

Makes the whole process pretty pointless.
Thank you Leo. How then would one best, if at all, utilize a Heart Rate monitor for health & performance considerations ? (Not expecting a treatise, but a point or link to a resource would be greatly appreciated.)

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by mikvan52 » February 28th, 2011, 8:24 am

Cayenne wrote: How then would one best, if at all, utilize a Heart Rate monitor for health & performance considerations ? (Not expecting a treatise, but a point or link to a resource would be greatly appreciated.)
Call/email/write ...: Declan Connelly at the University of Vemont... He did all this for me an it helped me on my path to get two hammers at CRASH-B


I see he's expanded his services ..
eg:
http://1k2go.com/coaching_services.html

IOW: Learn what your own zones are then the HR monitor becomes an even more precise tool.
There are labs like this all across the world. Choose one. It's money well spent.

Image
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repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Cayenne » February 28th, 2011, 11:30 am

mikvan52 wrote:
Cayenne wrote: How then would one best, if at all, utilize a Heart Rate monitor for health & performance considerations ? (Not expecting a treatise, but a point or link to a resource would be greatly appreciated.)
Call/email/write ...: Declan Connelly at the University of Vemont... He did all this for me an it helped me on my path to get two hammers at CRASH-B


I see he's expanded his services ..
eg:
http://1k2go.com/coaching_services.html

IOW: Learn what your own zones are then the HR monitor becomes an even more precise tool.
There are labs like this all across the world. Choose one. It's money well spent.

Image

Very cool Mikvan52, and very much appreciated. Thanks as well to the other folks who responded for the quality feedback!

Eddie

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by NavigationHazard » February 28th, 2011, 11:52 am

Connelly has a new book coming out this month on HR-based training:

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Rate-Traini ... 276&sr=8-1
67 MH 6' 6"

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by mikvan52 » February 28th, 2011, 1:25 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:Connelly has a new book coming out this month on HR-based training:

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Rate-Traini ... 276&sr=8-1
That's great news.
I just read a few of the exerpts on Amazon... Look like a valuable addition to the training library!
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American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Leo Young » February 28th, 2011, 6:10 pm

Cayenne wrote:
Leo Young wrote:I'd strongly suggest that using Dr Maffetone's formula, or for that matter, any other formula that uses age as a variable.

Individual max heart can vary by as much as 45 beats or more, above and below age predicted max HR; that's a variance range of more than 90 beats.

Add to that the fact that at any given max heart, HR at the anaerobic threshold or even max steady state lactate threshold, can vary by more than 50% (in relative terms) between indivduals.

Makes the whole process pretty pointless.
Thank you Leo. How then would one best, if at all, utilize a Heart Rate monitor for health & performance considerations ? (Not expecting a treatise, but a point or link to a resource would be greatly appreciated.)
You need to perform a max HR and anaerobic/lactate threshold test on the erg. I'd suggest doing a 'Conconi' style step protocol to identify your deflection point HR and max HR.

To ensure meaningful results, I'd strongly suggest having an easy training week in the lead up to the test, with a rest day the day before, otherwise your not likely to acheive your true potential max HR.

I'm not sure if anyone has develpoped a specific protocol for the C2 erg, which is readily accessible, but if anone knows of one, please post. If not, C2 have recently asked me to design a protocol for them to publish on the website, which I will try to do shortly if no-one can track one down before hand (although I'd be surprised if Navigation Hazard can't lay his hands on one to post).

Even once you've identified your deflection and max HR, these need to be regularly re-tested, as your threshold HR will increase over time, as your fitness imoroves and coversely your max HR may possibly decrease, as your heart volume increases with training (max HR is inversely proportional to heart size).

However, even your individual tested HR values should only be used as a training guide with caution and you should really allow your feelings of 'percieved exertion' during any given training session, to overide your HR as an intensity guide.

Rather than a numeric scale, I personaly prefer a descriptive guide as to how you feel. For example your anaerobic threshold occurs at the the highest steady state workload at which your breathing is still regular, rythmic, voluntary and controlled; where you can still talk properly, if required, but don't want to hold a conversation; and at which you still feel 'only a little uncomfortable'. Your 'aerobic threhold' occurs at the highest steady state workload at which you still feel 'comfortable'.

These two two levels form the upper and lower boundaries of where the majority of your aerobic training should occur, with the lower 'aerobic threshold' level described, or even just below this level, being the intensity at which most training occurs. In world class rowers, these two levels generally correspond to approximately 92% (approx 4 mmol lactate) and 78-83% (1.5 - 2 mmol lactate) of max HR, respectively.

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by sheehc » February 28th, 2011, 10:10 pm

These two two levels form the upper and lower boundaries of where the majority of your aerobic training should occur, with the lower 'aerobic threshold' level described, or even just below this level, being the intensity at which most training occurs.
Could you please clarify this sentence a little bit? I am interpreting it as saying the training should be between those two values with the aerobic threshold being the low end of the range. From what I've grasped, the bulk of your training ought be right at 2.0 mmol or just a touch under, and only a minority of the training between aerobic and anaerobic thresholds. Are we saying the same thing in different ways or are you promoting more of a UT1 based plan?

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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by mikvan52 » February 28th, 2011, 10:15 pm

Leo Young makes a good point about retesting:
.. but who wants to spend-spend-spend?
It's been four years since I had my last one. I think I'll go back in the lab and see how the new one compares with the old... I'm going to wait 'til I'm out of my pre-season to get tested... as I think that having established a firm aerobic base
would be valuable before testing.

In the meantime here's an "AT" workout I did this evening where I let perceived effort guide me.
Perception wise > the 1st and the 2nd were the hardest... even though the HR was lower at the end :? :!:
I let my HR sneak up as I was in less discomfort

5x5:00/5:00r

25:00 - 6918 - 1:48.4 - 30spm

1st 5' = 1:46.8 - 31 spm - 146 bpm (at end.. not avg) >>>HR fell to 91 bpm 1:00 into the rest interval
2nd = 1:49.2 - 28 spm - 148 >>> to 87 in 1'
3rd = 1:48.5 - 30 spm - 152 >>> to 89 in 1'
4th = 1:49.2 - 30 spm - 151 >>> to 87 in 1'
5th = 1:48.3 - 31 spm - 153 >>> to 86 in 1'

(maybe I should go to shorter rests... (?)
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Re: Heart Rate + Perceived Effort + Dr. Maffetone

Post by Leo Young » February 28th, 2011, 10:38 pm

sheehc wrote:
These two levels form the upper and lower boundaries of where the majority of your aerobic training should occur, with the lower 'aerobic threshold' level described, or even just below this level, being the intensity at which most training occurs.
Could you please clarify this sentence a little bit? I am interpreting it as saying the training should be between those two values with the aerobic threshold being the low end of the range. From what I've grasped, the bulk of your training ought be right at 2.0 mmol or just a touch under, and only a minority of the training between aerobic and anaerobic thresholds.
Correct. Assuming you are training for 2000m or longer distances, do most of your trainng at the lower 'aerobic threshold' level, with a couple of workouts a week around the higher anaerobic threshold level (including some work at max HR level, as well as some sprints, late in your training periodisation).

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