General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Not that you would know what "rowing well" might actually entail. Here's a hint: it doesn't involve fetishizing the out-of-context force curve. Or any other out-of-context aspect of rowing.
Why do you persist in thinking that an unnaturally high and premature force peak at low drag is the be-all and end-all of rowing? It's not, for a host of reasons. Some of them already have been pointed out to you. Here's some more:
* trying to stomp the catch OTW generally involves rowing the blades in. They've got to be square and just buried before you really lay on the pressure, horizontally, or you'll just drive them down and half-bury your oarshafts.
* one of the ways to stomp the catch OTE is to slam into frontstops to take advantage of recoil. If try to you do this in a boat the abrupt reversal of momentum will stop you dead.
* the higher the peak force at the catch in relation to average force, the more fast-twitch muscle fibers you're likely to need to recruit to help produce it. This leads to premature fatigue. For area under the force curve to remain constant, if you reduce duration you MUST increase amplitude (other things equal). A substantially increased amplitude implies substantially higher maximal workloads that cannot be sustained no matter how you try to arrange yourself biomechanically or dink around with rating. This has been 'known' in the literature for maybe 40 years already.
* you may think you're producing your vaunted "120 kgs" of handle force with your legs only, but I can pretty much guarantee you're also committing your back prematurely. The telltale 45 degree angle at which your force curve decays from the peak is a dead giveaway.
For comparison purposes, here's a real-world force curve over 250m r35 at DF 95:
I share that perspective Nav. The high peak is just nothing more than a stroke that has poor endurance. Too much fast twitch. Fun to watch ranger struggle against that truth.
And, for certain, that is nothing for a boat. However ranger can dismiss that while pursuing erg based goals.
Sorry, Nav, but given that you are 6'6", 260 lbs. and I am 5'11", 170 lbs., and so, of course, there are going to be _some_ differences, I just don't see much difference between our force curves at 95 df. at all, given the different stroking powers we are using (11 SPI vs. 14 SPI).
The peak of my stroke comes about 40% of the way into my drive.
That's too early?
Sounds perfect to me.
As far as I can tell, most of your strokes come down from the peak in a 45 degree angle, too.
And as far as I can tell, the peaks of most of your strokes also come about 40% of the way into your stroke.
You use your length to get a fatter curve and therefore more power, but I don't see much difference in the timing and sequencing of our levers at all.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on April 7th, 2011, 12:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sorry, Nav, but given that you are 6'6", 260 lbs. and I am 5'11", 170 lbs., and so, of course, there are going to be _some_ differences, I just don't see much difference between our force curves at 95 df. at all, given the different stroking powers we are using (11 SPI vs. 14 SPI).
The peak of my stroke comes about 40% of the way into my drive.
That's too early?
Sounds perfect to me.
As far as I can tell, most of your strokes come down from the peak in a 45 degree angle, too.
And as far as I can tell, the peaks of most of your strokes also come about 40% of the way into your stroke.
You use your length to get a fatter curve and therefore more power, but I don't see much difference in the timing and sequencing of our levers at all.
ranger
I'm not sure who to believe here ... ranger, could you recreate this same video with the same pace/drag/rate/etc. as Nav and post it here for comparison please?
There is one _large_ difference in our rowing, I suspect.
You don't row at 95 df. from day to day at all.
And you certainly don't row easily at 95 df. and 14 SPI at the kind of rates I am now hitting (28-30 spm) for my distance rowing.
We'll have to see, I guess, but I think I'll use 95 df., 11 SPI, and the force curve you were just looking at to do a FM at 26-28 spm and a HM at 28-30 spm.
JimR wrote:I'm not sure who to believe here ... ranger, could you recreate this same video with the same pace/drag/rate/etc. as Nav and post it here for comparison please?
No need.
Given our different sizes, the comparison is exact as is.
Nav is pulling 14 SPI in the video; I am pulling 11 SPI.
3 SPI is the normal spread in stroking power between lightweights and heavyweights of comparable quality.
JimR wrote:
I'm not sure who to believe here ... ranger, could you recreate this same video with the same pace/drag/rate/etc. as Nav and post it here for comparison please?
JimR
We lack key data. I don't see any evidence that the DF is 95 in either video. OTOH Nav has been pretty open about posting real data and screen shots. TSO OTOH never posts verifiable evidence. The only thing we have to go on is his BIRC "performance".
Also TSO needs to learn to shoot video properly. With the camera straight at the monitor. He could afford a cheapy tripod being so wealthy and all.
Huh? My video starts with the monitor showing the DF as 95. I suppose it's possible that it's really Elvis rowing (or Steve Redgrave), not me, and that the ghost of Jim Morrison is out of sight changing the damper lever....
ranger wrote:There is one _large_ difference in our rowing, I suspect.
You don't row at 95 df. from day to day at all.
And you certainly don't row easily at 95 df. and 14 SPI at the kind of rates I am now hitting (28-30 spm) for my distance rowing.
We'll have to see, I guess, but I think I'll use 95 df., 11 SPI, and the force curve you were just looking at to do a FM at 26-28 spm and a HM at 28-30 spm.
ranger
No It will take nav quite some time before he can string 19 strokes together on this drag
NavigationHazard wrote:Huh? My video starts with the monitor showing the DF as 95. I suppose it's possible that it's really Elvis rowing (or Steve Redgrave), not me, and that the ghost of Jim Morrison is out of sight changing the damper lever....
Oops. My bad. I stand corrected. But that ghost thing, well......
Mike wrote:but, with some easy adjustment, you can redirect the force vectors of your rowing to drive a boat smoothly over the surface of the water instead of down into it.
Hi Mike,
What a coincidence. I said something like that in the (rejected) short list of suggestions that I prepared for our hero right after our one and only row on the Grand. One of my suggestions, in addition to some steering tips, involved tweaking his rigging to compensate for his (to put it kindly) unorthodox stroke. It is possible to move a boat fast enough to do well in local regattas taking a small catch angle with bent arms and opening up early. Of course competing at the level of R. Anderson would be a different story.
nharrigan wrote:The weather is perfect for rowing.
Absolutely. I did a nice 20K on the river this morning.
