Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

In head races, my target rate will be 30-32 spm, just what I rate in a 5K on the erg.

If he holds his technique together, Mike VB would prefer to rate about 25 spm in a 5K, both OTW and on the erg.

ranger

[becz]

even when I haven't prepared for it.

ranger

I think "unprepared" is a better way to put it, especially when you show up for your first race OTW.

[ranger]

even when I haven't prepared for it.

ranger

I think "unprepared" is a better way to put it, especially when you show up for your first race OTW.

No, when I show up to race OTW for the first time, I will be fully prepared for it, as I was when I first raced on the erg.

I haven't been preparing for my races on the erg over the last few years because my goals have not been focussed on racing but on training.

I have been training to pull a lwt 6:16 at 60.

Racing has no bearing on this training.

No one gets better by racing.

You get better by improving the effectiveness and efficiency of your UT rowing.

ranger

[becz]

Can you let us know if you were rowing at max drag in this video. That's the reason you gave for the poor technique, and in general the reason you gave for your poor erg performances this year

My performances weren't at all poor this last winter.

No one my age and weight came within 20 seconds of my 2K.

I pulled WR pace for my age and weight without even preparing for it.

If I had prepared for racing, I would have been a dozen seconds under WR pace.

Sure, given my technique now, I think it was a mistake to row at max drag in my races and that probably slowed me down even further.

How much, I don't know, but probably some.

Given my technique now, rowing at max drag also undermined my efficiency doing certain sorts of training.

So, I am now rowing at low drag (123 df.).

I have been rowing at low drag for a couple of months.

At low drag, I use the full slide and therefore quicker (and bigger) legs, with a more delayed engagement of my back and arms.

At the catch, the roller on my seat is only six inches from front stops.

This is much closer to an effective OTW stroke.

ranger

You didn't answer the question. You specifically stated that in this video you're rowing at max drag, and that was what you ascribe to the technique you're demonstrating (which you admit is bad). But it's obvious from the video that you're not rowing at max drag. You've posted here that all of the rowing you've done at max drag this past year was a mistake, and was the reason you didn't come close to your own predictions. Note that I'm not saying 6:41 isn't a good performance for a 59 year old, but you've stated over and over that you were going to pull a 6:28 this year,and the primary reason you give for not coming anywhere near this is all of the rowing you did at max drag. But in this video, where you say you're rowing at max drag, you clearly aren't. Doesn't this cast a doubt on everything you're saying?

[ranger]

you've stated over and over that you were going to pull a 6:28 this year,and the primary reason you give for not coming anywhere near this is all of the rowing you did at max drag.

No, what I have stated is that I am going to pull 6:28 when I have completed my distance rowing and have done a full set of distance trials.

Then I will sharpen.

I get a dozen seconds over 2K from sharpening.

Regardless of drag, in the video, I am short-sliding.

The rollers on my seat are a couple of _feet_ from front stops.

I no longer row this way on the erg.

You _can't_ row this way (effectively and efficiently) OTW.

At the time of the video, I was training at max drag.

If I didn't do the video at max drag, I should have to illustrate what I was doing.

I now row at 123 df. and use a full slide.

ranger

[ranger]

with comments like this, you will end up being the most ridiculed and derided individual in the sport

Yea.

Referring to old men as old men is a vicious attack and egregious distortion of the truth.



60s rowers like Dietz are not Olympic athletes or on the National team.

They are just old men.

They row 15 seconds per 500m slower than younger rowers.

This decline in performance has nothing to do with technique.

The decline is in physical capacity.

Because of their age, they are no longer able.

ranger

[whp4]

And that's exactly why there are no IND_V results posted by you

Nope.

I have verified results every year, just like everyone else.

Notice I said IND_V, not verified? Work on the reading comprehension some more. We've seen plenty of crappy verified results from you as well, coupled with predictions of how you are going to do rather better!

No one my age and weight came within 20 seconds of my 2K last year, even though I didn't prepare to race.

Ah, yes, the old "I wasn't even trying" line, so popular on elementary school playgrounds, and no more convincing.

When I prepare to race this fall and winter, that gap will grow to 40, or even 50, seconds.

Yes, the gap between your predictions and the reality of your performances, not to mention the gap between making a bet with Henry and the time you finally pay up.

It's hard to argue with success.

It might be, but it doesn't apply to an argument with you! We'll get back to you on that supposed difficulty after you successfully meet one of your predictions about new distance PBs, or break any established records, or demonstrate improved form with your new boat or old erg, or manage to make travel plans that actually get you to Boston in time for your race.

[becz]

Yea.

Referring to old men as old men is a vicious attack and egregious distortion of the truth.

Maybe you're not even paying attention to what you're writing anymore. This is what you said...

Among 60s rowers, the glaring deficiency of those "stylish" competitors--former Olympians, etc.--is that they can't rate up.

C'est dommage.

Anyone who can rate up can blow by them--no problem.

They are just broken down old men who no longer value the importance of physical capacity and training in rowing.

[becz]

you've stated over and over that you were going to pull a 6:28 this year,and the primary reason you give for not coming anywhere near this is all of the rowing you did at max drag.

No, what I have stated is that I am going to pull 6:28 when I have completed my distance rowing and have done a full set of distance trials.

Then I will sharpen.

I get a dozen seconds over 2K from sharpening.

Regardless of drag, in the video, I am short-sliding.

The rollers on my seat are a couple of _feet_ from front stops.

I no longer row this way on the erg.

You _can't_ row this way (effectively and efficiently) OTW.

At the time of the video, I was training at max drag.

If I didn't do the video at max drag, I should have to illustrate what I was doing.

I now row at 123 df. and use a full slide.

ranger

But you were rowing poorly, as you just mentioned, and attribute it to max drag. In fact you just said, "If I didn't do the video at max drag, I should have to illustrate what I was doing." But you did show us what you were doing (rowing poorly) even though you weren't rowing at max drag, which I think we can agree on. So the only conclusions I can draw are: 1) you row poorly whether you're rowing at max drag or not, and 2) you were clearly lying, which puts everything you're saying about what you do in training into doubt.

[ranger]

But you did show us what you were doing (rowing poorly) even though you weren't rowing at max drag

No, short-sliding, especially at max drag, is not at all bad rowing on the erg.

In fact, an easy 1:48 @ 24 spm, which I am doing in the video, is astonishingly good for a 60s lwt.

The only thing that constrains an erg stroke is effectiveness and efficiency in generating power.

Ergs don't float.

Many of the greatest ergers in the history of indoor rowing (Andy Ripley, Tore Foss, etc.) have had odd ways of generating power on the erg. Ripley rowed at max drag and muscled the chain with his core and back with a big lay-back. Foss erged with the handle between his legs.

To my knowledge, Paul Hendershott has never rowed in a boat. What he did on the erg was nothing like an OTW stroke.

Roy Brook has never rowed in a boat.

Has Nik Fleming rowed in a boat? If so, I am not aware of it.

Sorry to say so, but even though he _did_ row OTW, Dennis Hastings' rowing stroke on the erg is atrociously bad, vis-a-vis an OTW rowing stroke. No wonder he couldn't do anything in a 1x OTW.

On the erg, Mike Caviston muscles the chain with his arms. His stroke is not at all an OTW stroke.

And so forth.

Just to add myself to the list, what I did in 2002-2003 to pull a lwt 6:28 on the erg when I was just shy of 53 was _waaaay_ odder, vis-a-vis an OTW rowing stroke, than what I am doing in this video back in March.

I will say again:

Not sure why I wasn't at max drag in the video, but the distance stroke I am doing there was designed for rowing at max drag.

That is why I have now given it up.

I now row at 123 df.

I use a full slide.

So the stroke I use now is much closer to a standard OTW stroke.

In fact, as far as I can tell, it is just what I do in my boat, e.g., when I am pulling 2:10 @ 23 spm (10 MPS).

On the erg, I am now doing a lot of 1:46 @ 26 spm, 123 df., full slide, with my HR around 155 bpm.

At eighteen seconds per 500m slower, that's equivalent for me OTW of 2:04 @ 26 spm.

Whenever I can, I also try to work my way up to this 26 spm OTW, although I haven't been getting to 26 spm as often OTW as I am on the erg.

ranger

[ranger]

Maybe you're not even paying attention to what you're writing anymore. This is what you said...

Among 60s rowers, the glaring deficiency of those "stylish" competitors--former Olympians, etc.--is that they can't rate up.

C'est dommage.

Anyone who can rate up can blow by them--no problem.

They are just broken down old men who no longer value the importance of physical capacity and training in rowing.

Yep.

That's seems exactly right.

What is wrong with it?

On this forum, 60s rowers of this sort, who don't value physical capacity and training as much as they should, have told me that I shouldn't train so much, that I shouldn't train at high rates (or low rates), that I shouldn't jump rope, step, bike, and cross-train in various ways, that I shouldn't do sit ups for core strength or pull-ups for arm strength, that I shouldn't pull hard when I train, etc.

They have also objected vigorously to my claim that technique is not at all the most important element of boat speed--or the second most important.

Sorry, but IMHO, anyone who knows anything about rowing at all would never say such things.

Why?

Because physical capacity and training are the two most important elements of boat speed.

The best 60s rowers, like Dietz, fall short of younger rowers by 15 seconds seconds per 500m.

This shortfall doesn't have anything to do with technique.

It has to do with physical capacity and training.

ranger

[Nosmo]

In head races, my target rate will be 30-32 spm, just what I rate in a 5K on the erg.

If he holds his technique together, Mike VB would prefer to rate about 25 spm in a 5K, both OTW and on the erg.

WRONG: Mike did 28.5 spm into a headwind at the Black Fly (which is over 5k)

Go ahead rate 30-32 and we will see how it goes. (but you have to learn how to show up first).

[ranger]

but you have to learn how to show up first

Not sure why you interject this.

In my erging, I have raced more than anyone.

I haven't raced OTW because I have just been learning to row.

That's hardly some sort of fault.

People like Dietz, Spousta, and Mike VB are rowing coaches, who have been rowing all their lives--for 40 years.

I am new to the sport.

I didn't row in a boat until I was 53 years old.

I don't belong to a club.

I have never received any coaching.

Completely different situation.

I have had various things to handle first before I race on the water--rigging, equipment, technique, training, etc.

It can't be done in a minute.

I have been working very hard at it, and I am indeed getting things done.

I have also given you the schedule I have set for myself for racing OTW (and on the erg).

Not much else to be said.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike did 28.5 spm into a headwind at the Black Fly

Sure.

Probably shortening up a bit because of the headwind.

6.3 SPI is low for Mike.

I have been shooting for 7 SPI, and he usually does at least that, too.

But as I have been mentioning, we now stroke right about the same.

In a race, head-to-head, who goes faster will depend on rate.

Mike does 5K on the erg, 10 SPI @ 28 spm.

I am shooting for 11.5 SPI @ 31 spm.

If Mike pulled 11.5 SP for 5K on the erg, which he certainly could, he would have to drop the rate to 25 spm.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike did 28.5 spm into a headwind at the Black Fly

Sure.

Probably shortening up a bit because of the headwind.

6.3 SPI is low for Mike.

I have been shooting for 7 SPI, and he usually does at least that, too.

But as I have been mentioning, we now stroke right about the same.

In a race, head-to-head, who goes faster will depend on rate.

Mike does 5K on the erg, 10 SPI @ 28 spm.

I am shooting for 11.5 SPI @ 31 spm.

If Mike pulled 11.5 SP for 5K on the erg, which he certainly could, he would have to drop the rate to 25 spm.

ranger

Sigh....

spi... spi... spi... (ad nauseum)

spi has so little bearing on success in head racing...
.... let it go, Rich... work on efficiency thru form improvement. Trust me on this. I'm not trying to lead you astray.

I can pull 13 spi on the erg... where does that get me? +++===>> fit but not necessarily 1st.

Rich: You know lots about rhythm and efficiency... That's the key.
It's too bad those videos of the HOCR don't play any longer... They were a great demo of why lower rate wins more frequently at the 3 mi./5k head racing distance... Dietz (low) beats Meyer (high) etc.

Old guys like us need to take advantage of a smooth run in our boats

Give it a whirl.. You'll see what I mean...

(1k is a different animal)