6:28 2K

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 2:31 am

KevJGK wrote:Even assuming 6:40 form you could only do this session around 01:46-01:47 but to start off I would suggest no faster than 01:51 and even that will be very tough.

Before you ever do 4 x 2K, a sharpening workout, you do distance trials, to see where you are.

The crucial issue in distance trials is what you can row, steady state, at your anaerobic threshold.

When I am fully trained up for distance rowing, I can row, steady state, at my anaerobic threshold for 60min, perhaps even for a HM.

Subtract 6, and you have your pace for 4 x 2K.

Your 60min/HM pace is top-end UT1.

4 x 2K is AT.

So, back in 2003, I did 1:48 for 60min and 4 x 2K at 1:42.

You have admitted that you can't row steady state at all, that even in a row that you start out at UT2 (e.g., 2:10), your HR goes to AT.

Given this, no wonder these issues are baffling to you.

If you can't row steady state at all, what is being asked of you by training plans for rowing is impossible.

You have no endurance, no technical and physical consistency, no ability to relax.

To cure these ills, if I were you, I would just row for 1-2 hours every session.

Start with a pace that you can do consistently at steady state, however slow that might be.

Then, over the days, weeks, and months, slowly increase that pace, maintaining steady state, by working on relaxation, technique, and other matters.

It is easy to see by the monitor when you are at steady state.

At steady state, your HR will often _go down_ a bpm or so, alternating between two levels--e.g., 150 bpm, then 149 bpm, then 150 bpm, then 149 bpm.

It doesn't continue to go up.

If you want to do 6:40 for 2K, you should be able to row 1:55 @ 22 spm, steady state, at UT2, for a couple of hours.

A FM trial would show you whether you can do this.

A FM is done at UT2, or if not, low UT1.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 3:48 am

The trick with distance rowing is to rate 30 spm, comfortably, at steady state.

Then you are _really_ cookin'.

I am now doing this.

Rowing steady state at 16 spm is a no-brainer.

But you have to be _very_ smooth and natural to hold your technique firm and still row comfortably, steady state, at 30 spm'.

You need to row well.

Heck, if you can do this, why in the world would you need to do a lot of trudging at lower rates?

Silly stuff.

Just row.

Rate 30 spm.

Do it again.

Do it again.

Do it every day.

Don't do anything else.

Great stuff.

Every so often, sharpen and race.

If I hold my technique together, even with a maximally light stroke (11 SPI), I go 1:42.

Last year, no 60s lwt did 1:42 for 2K.

Besides me, only one other 55s lwt did 1:42 for 2K, the WR-holder, Roy Brook.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 4:04 am

Hey, all you nay-sayers out there.

If you are patient and determined, even crazy dreams come true.

Take it to 'em, Miss Underwood.

Tell it like it is.

Hello, you wild magnolias.

You might not know it, but you're (also) just waitin' ta bloom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZNaWFqf_OE

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 4:44 am

When I first took up rowing about 10 years ago, because of my background in canoeing, I rowed everything at about 30 spm, perhaps higher, even a FM.

I used a dinky little stroke, though, about 8 SPI.

So I wasn't doing anything that even vaguely resembled rowing well.

8 SPI @ 30 spm is 1:54 pace.

So that's what I did for a FM.

I now row well.

A maximally light stroke for me now is 11 SPI.

11 SPI @ 30 spm is 1:42.

It will be interesting to see what I can do now in a set of distance trials.

ranger

KevJGK · Post by **KevJGK** » December 20th, 2009, 4:54 am

Thanks for your advice about distance work and endurance. Regarding sharpening you said you would start at the end of the month with 4 x 2K at 1:43 before pushing the pace down to 1:38.

I said based on 6:40 form 01:46-01:47 would be more like it and as you have not started sharpening yet to start off no faster than 01:51 which would be very tough.

ranger wrote:As I said, I will start at 1:43 and push that down to 1:38 as time goes on.

I'll take more rest than five minutes, I think.

I then asked. What sort of rest do you think you would need? 10 minutes?

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 5:12 am

KevJGK wrote:I said based on 6:40 form 01:46-01:47 would be more like it and as you have not started sharpening yet to start off no faster than 01:51 which would be very tough.

I said that if I did 60min @ 1:44, as I intend to do, _before_ I start sharpening, it is absurd to do 4 x 2K @ 1:51 during sharpening.

60min at 1:44 is just a bit shy of 9 x 2K @ 1:44, no rest.

1:49 is UT2.

1:44 for 60min predicts 1:34 for 2K.

Why do 4 x 2K with a HR of 140 bpm, low UT2?

4 x 2K is done at AT.

My AT HR is 180 bpm.

AT and UT2 differ by 11 seconds per 500m.

In terms of a 2K reference, my (foundaitonal and distance) "base" is not 6:40.

My (foundational and distance) "base" is 6:16.

Last year, I pulled 6:41 for 2K on the basis of just foundational training.

I get about a dozen seconds each over 2K from distance rowing and sharpening, which I am adding this year.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 5:30 am

Your 2K reference pace is what you can do for 2K when you are fully trained and racing regularly.

Full training involves foundational rowing, distance rowing, sharpening, and racing--not just one, or some selection of the above.

No one can row their best 2K if they just train at 18-22 spm over long distances.

No one can row their best 2K if they do no foundatioal training.

No one can row their best 2K without doing some races and working up some race strategies and race experience.

No one can row their best 2K without a lot of extended threshold training.

No one can row their best 2K without a couple of months of hard anaerobic sprinting.

ranger

KevJGK · Post by **KevJGK** » December 20th, 2009, 5:33 am

ranger wrote:
KevJGK wrote:I said based on 6:40 form 01:46-01:47 would be more like it and as you have not started sharpening yet to start off no faster than 01:51 which would be very tough.
I said that if I did 60min @ 1:44, as I intend to do, _before_ I start sharpening, it is absurd to do 4 x 2K @ 1:51 during sharpening.

60min at 1:44 is just a bit shy of 9 x 2K @ 1:44, no rest.

1:49 is UT2.

1:44 for 60min predicts 1:34 for 2K.

Why do 4 x 2K with a HR of 140 bpm, low UT2?

4 x 2K is done at AT.

My AT HR is 180 bpm.

AT and UT2 differ by 11 seconds per 500m.

In terms of a 2K reference, my (foundaitonal and distance) "base" is not 6:40.

My (foundational and distance) "base" is 6:16.

Last year, I pulled 6:41 for 2K on the basis of just foundational training.

I get about a dozen seconds each over 2K from distance rowing and sharpening, which I am adding this year.

ranger

OK. I can see that 4*2000 at 01:43 is very easy for you although I can’t get you to say how much rest you think you would need. You certainly have impressive confidence for what is in my opinion a tough target. If you can really kick your sharpening off with a 4*2000 averaging 01:43 you should be rewarded.

How about this then for some easy money? I am not that busy between Christmas and New Year and I would enjoy a relaxing round trip to say hello. I could fly London to Detroit next Sunday, come to your place for a couple of hours Monday and fly back Tuesday. I could witness your 4*2000 and wager $5,000 cash that you could not average 01:43 even with 10 minutes rest. If you lose you can just pay me $3,000 cash which would more than cover my air fare hotel and car.

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 5:38 am

KevJGK wrote: I can’t get you to say how much rest you think you would need.

In a 4 x 2K workout, for me, rest is irrelevant.

I just do the four 2Ks.

I do one.

When I am ready, I do the next one.

And so forth.

To hit my 2K target, I will have to do 4 x 2K @ 1:38.

In my age and weight division, 1:39.5 is the 2K WR.

So, how can rest be relevant in a 4 x 2K workout, if each 2K is a WR?

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 5:42 am

KevJGK wrote:How about this then for some easy money? I am not that busy between Christmas and New Year and I would enjoy a relaxing round trip to say hello. I could fly London to Detroit next Sunday, come to your place for a couple of hours Monday and fly back Tuesday. I could witness your 4*2000 and wager $5,000 cash that you could not average 01:43 even with 10 minutes rest. If you lose you can just pay me $3,000 cash which would more than cover my air fare hotel and car.

No reason for all that fall-dee-rah.

Sometime over the next month or so, I'll just do 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI, 10 MPS) for 8K and post the screenshot.

That's 4 x 2K @ 1:43, no rest.

My target for 30min is 1:41.

The 60s lwt WR for 30min is 8225, 1:49.4 pace.

ranger

KevJGK · Post by **KevJGK** » December 20th, 2009, 5:45 am

We are not talking about WRs. You say you will start your sharpening off with 4*2000 @ 01:43. For that to be a meaningful statement we have to state the rest period. Even I could do 4*2000 @ 01:45 if the rest was long enough. I would need it to be about 14 days.

Should I book those flights?

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 5:47 am

KevJGK wrote:We are not talking about WRs. You say you will start your sharpening off with 4*2000 @ 01:43. For that to be a meaningful statement we have to state the rest period. Even I could do 4*2000 @ 01:45 if the rest was long enough. I would need it to be about 14 days.

Should I book those flights?

I am not interested in 4 x 2K @ 1:45.

If I am going to pull 1:45, I would just row a HM, straight through.

ranger

KevJGK · Post by **KevJGK** » December 20th, 2009, 5:54 am

I said "Even I could do 4*2000 @ 01:45 if the rest was long enough. I would need it to be about 14 days." I understand that 01:43 is comfortable for you.

What about those flights? My wife is looking at Ann Arbor on the internet and says it looks absolutely stunning. Don't worry you wont have to meet her, she can do her own thing for a couple of hours.

Steve G · Post by **Steve G** » December 20th, 2009, 5:54 am

ranger wrote:
Steve G wrote:Rich
You mentioned in an earlier post you could do thirty pull ups, then a few posts later you said you dont do any anymore but would provide a video?
You cannot go from nought to thirty, prove it mister.
I can do 50 press-ups no problem, but if I did none for 3 months I would struggle to do 25, simple facts.
BTW I have asked numerous times what is your weight pre workout, no answer yet?

Cheers
Steve 59 64 kgs
SNIP
ranger

Rich
you avoided ,my weight question again!
Steve

ranger · Post by **ranger** » December 20th, 2009, 6:04 am

Kevin--

What you can do for an AT workout like 4 x 2K depends on your threshold, steady state rowing, e.g., what you can do for 60min.

AT is your 60min pace minus six.

But as you have described your situation, you have no steady state rowing at all, much less steady state threshold rowing.

So I can understand why you are so bewildered.

ranger