New Wolverine Plan Thread

[pmacaula]

Veronique - makes sense to me. Glad there are a few people out there to ask questions of regarding the WP on the water.

Agree with you that more than 6 mos or so of continuous WP would be tough. Given I was really just getting back into shape last fall, the improvements came very fast, so it did not seem so onerous.

The new ref pace is sure to make the higher end L4 sessions (> 19spm) a real effort & the L1/L2 sessions real 'hurt box' exercises.

In my case, the real saviour was discovering RP online last January (after 3 mos of solo erging to the WP) & a great bunch of guys to erg with.

Cheers. Patrick.

[ThatMoos3Guy]

I rowed on the Connecticut river this summer and it was really different. Over an hour upstream without any singnificant turns didn't see another boat of any type. I would be envious of those who row their but I get to row year round.

Little off topic, but I rowed on the Connecticut during high school and over the summers. Never realized just how awesome it was until I went away.

[bloomp]

I rowed on the Connecticut river this summer and it was really different. Over an hour upstream without any singnificant turns didn't see another boat of any type. I would be envious of those who row their but I get to row year round.

Little off topic, but I rowed on the Connecticut during high school and over the summers. Never realized just how awesome it was until I went away.

Depends on what part of it you're on in Hanover and up yonder it is nice (even in Hartford it is nice), but down in Middletown it is disgusting and the conditions can flare up quickly.

I personally have never been able to train on a river, but it does seem like a nice prospect to have 40+ minutes in one direction to row, then come back down.

[TomR]

Are any of you still doing the WP?

[bloomp]

Yep, love it, works for me.

[polaco]

Are any of you still doing the WP?

Yes, I'm following it from Monday to Friday (during weekends I have to follow my OTW coach training sessions)

Sometime is hard, today is L1 time....

[Nosmo]

I haven't done as much training this year and haven't been very consistent. This is the start of my off season--last OTW race was 9 days ago--so I won't be pushing it too much but I'm starting up again with the WP workouts on the erg. My training usually varies quite a bit in the winter, some weeks I do as little as three days others as much as six.

Recent workouts:
sat 11/21 row OTW 2x ~ 1 hour
sat 11/22 5K race OTW 2x. 2nd out of 7
tue 11/24 60' L4 + 20' wu/cd
thurs 11/26 L2 -4x2000m 8'r. 7:21.1/27, 7:20.4/27, 7:20.1/28, 7:17.2/29. 149.9 ave. 4.6K WU. 18K total WU, CD + rest meters
Fri 11/27 bike ride ~26miles, 3000' of climbing. Some rain and fog.
Sat 11/28 L3 OTW double. 60' 24-26 spm + ~3K WU/CD
Mon 11/30 L1 3x1000 r 6'. 1:46.1, 1:46.0, 1:45.9

I was very happy with Thursday's L2. It was a good workout but not brutal. It was less then a second behind the end of the season last year when I did a lot more training, so I had thought I was significantly slower. I thought if I could do 4x2000 at 1:50 pace I should be able to do close to 1:45 for the 4x1000, but Monday's L1 workout was actually much harder. I couldn't have done a fourth at 1:46. I am feeling a bit run down so maybe that is it, or maybe I just haven't been doing enough L1's. Will find out soon I guess.

[TomR]

Haven't been on the erg as consistently as in previous years, but I'm going to try the WP.

Plan is to row 5 days, lift 1.
I've picked a 2.00 ref pace. I'll do a 2k trial early next year and adjust.

During the past 2 wks, I've done some 30 min L4s
Tonight L3/7500 meters.

I'll work up to recommended distances in the coming weeks.

[pmacaula]

Tom - good start ! I started the same way over a year ago. It is truly amazing the gains you make if you stick with the plan & the steady progression on the L4s.

Cheers. Patrick.

[TomR]

thanx pmac

L4-32 mins

168/172/168/+2min

Post row:

Deadlift, finishing 1x255/265/270/290#
Dbell row, 2x10x50#
Rotator cuff stuff

[TomR]

Chugging away. Since previous post

L4/L2/L4

Squat, military press/Curl, kb swings/Bench, wrist roller, ab wheel

Times short. Paces slow. Weights light.

[Nosmo]

In a previous post I mentioned I was doing L3 intervals as 2:00 on :40 recovery. I couldn't think of any reason not to do them this way. I figured MC had to address this somewhere and I must have forgotten. Sure enough it was in the second link of patrick's first post in this thread.:

My other weekly Level 3 uses the interval format. I’ve tinkered for the past few years with a number of different formats but they all total about 15K distance or 45-50’ of total work and they all use the specific work:recovery ratio of three minutes/one minute. I used to program the workout by time and commonly did 3’ on/1’ off (x15). I’ve also tried 2’ on/40” off (x24), 4’ on/1’ 20” off (x12), and 5’ on/1’ 40” off (x9 or 10). All of those formats give essentially the same results and it was just a matter of getting a little variety. I do find that the shorter/more frequent intervals allow me reduce the pace a little more by taking more frequent advantage of the low splits one can get when starting an interval off the fly. (I’ve read that you can’t do that with the new PM3, but I haven’t had
the opportunity to try yet). For the past two years I’ve done all the Level 3 intervals based on distance rather than time. I’ve tried 1000m x 15, 1250m x 12, 1500m x 10 and 2000m x 8 as work distances while setting the recovery interval based on what I estimate will give me a 3:1 ratio. Like many people, I just psychologically like watching meters count down more so than minutes (and I get enough of minutes with Level 4 anyway). So the 1500m intervals end up being in the 5 ½ minute ball park and the 2K intervals around 7 minutes. I’ve settled on 1500m as being my primary distance if for no other reason than it makes the math much simpler.

Good to know my intuition was right.

I've been recently setting the monitor to 10:00 intervals with 0:15 rest for the L4 workouts. I like it much better. It mentally breaks up the work out better--I focus on the current interval rather then always being reminded of how many minutes I have to go. Also I at the end of each inteval I have 15 seconds to see how many meters I did and compare with the target meters. I almost always just row continously adding 15 seconds to the start of the next secquence but if I want to take off some clothing or drink I have a few seconds to do it without interfering with the sequence.

Since I Last posted my workouts have been fairly mediocre.
I wrote about my misserable L1 3x1000 at 1:45.9 (unsuccessful 4x1000 attempt) on 11/30. SInce then

12/01 rest
12/02 7.5K L3 ~1:58 pace. This was an attempted 10K but got interrupted. Total 13K including WU/CD
12/03 50 L4' 168, 176, 176,176,184 (+4/+3/+6/+5/-4m) 17.7 spm ave. 2.5KWU 1.7KCD
12/04 rest
12/05 Bike Ride ~ 1hr 2000' of climbing.
12/06 Row OTW-- 90 minutes lesson with Ric Ricci-- Conn. College and Craftsbury Coach. I then went out in the launch with him for his next coaching session. Big treat. Many consider him a bit eccentric, but he is very smart, very perceptive and very interesting. Highly recommended.
Had a sore throat all day and knew I was getting sick. I was a bit run down from lack of sleep.
12/07 Sick stayed in bed all day. Slight fever.
12/08 Still sick. Throat better but felt it in my lungs. but got up and did a 30' L4: 168, 176, 176 (+1/+10/+9m) went back to bed for the rest of the day. 2.5K WU 1K CD
12/09 Feeling better 40' L4. 184,188,192,196 (-1/+4/-1/-1) 2.5K WU/1.7KCD. Went back to sleep for a while then went to work for 4 hours.
12/10 L2 - I wasn't sure about this. Now sure If I was recovered enough and didn't know if it was a good idea to push this hard after being sick. 4.7K WU
Goal was 1:51 average.
paces were
3K -- 1:51.2 / 28 -- didn't think I could do the work out after this
2.5K -- 1:51.4/27 -- Really doubted I could finish it
2K -- 1:50.4/28 -- Some how pulled it off but felt really awful.
ave 1:51.0
1700m CD
Ate breakfast, walked the dogs and went to bed for an hour. Then got up and went to work. Felt pretty tired the whole day. At the end of the day I had a slight sore throat. Went to bed at 8:00pm Up at 4:45.
12/11 2500m WU. 50' L4 180,184,188,184,188. +5/+11/+2/+2/+2 1700m CD. Still not 100% but all in all feeling OK

Generally I don't train when I'm sick. I try to rest and get better as fast as possible so this week was a bit of an experiment. IF my wife wasn't out of town this week, I'm sure she wouldn't have let me out of bed. I read some studies that indicated that training with a cold actually helps recovery. It certainly didn't seem to hurt except for the L2 yesterday. If I had to do it over again I think I would have done a moderately short L3 interval session. The L2 just took too much out of me.

This week end: OTW rowing if the weather is OK, otherwise L3 sat and L4 sunday. L1 monday.

Update: Saturday morning. OTW 2x 59:05 (4 laps on the lake). ~15K including WU/CD. Good water. Started in Drizzle finished in a good rain. Boat felt pretty good. Kept the speed up well in the turns which is an improvement.
Update 2: Sunday. OTW 84 minute L4 1x. 50 minutes with other scullers. A bit wet--light rain at times, but good water. Varied the sequences to match a 16:00-17:00 lap, and to keep it simple for the others who are not familiar with the L4 sequences. 16,18,20,22,24,22,20,18 for first lap.
15,17,19,21,23,25,23,21 for second and third. 15,17,19,21,23,25,23,21,19,17,15,17,19,21,23,25,23 for 4th and 5th laps.
Still coughing up gunk. Not sure if I'm really getting over this cold.
Update 3: Monday was very tired and a bit sore and still a bit sick. I over did this weekend. Was a bit foolish to do the 25 spm during the L4 and it was a long workout for me then I had been doing, it just felt so good to be in a single rather then on the erg. So I did an easy L3 interval instead. 8x3'/1'r. Started at 2:00 dropped one second each interval except for the last one where I dropped it to 1:49. Knew I had to take Tuesday off because of other commitments.
Tuesday, just some core work and a short walk with the dogs. Even wimped out and drove to work instead or taking the bike.

[NavigationHazard]

Bumped over from the "What Training Today" thread to a more appropriate venue. Comments on a 15 x 3'/1' session at 1:43.4 r24.0.

I don't know about the '~85-90% of 2k velocity.' I make 1:43.4 pace to be 90% of 1:33.1, which sounds about right when compared to other recent workouts. 85% would imply 1:27.9 2k pace, which is patently silly. Especially considering the 24 spm. True, if I relaxed the stroke rate to 28 I should be able to go under 1:42 average for 15 reps....

Nav. I think the 85-90% of 2k velocity refers more to 12k continuous L3 sessions.

From the Wolverine Plan L3 notes: "Level 3 workouts are generally continuous in nature (though occasionally the interval format is used), performed at a consistent pace for a total duration of ~ 12K. The intensity is ~ 85-90% of 2K velocity. The focus is on endurance more than speed, though a shorter Level 3 workout can approach Level 2 intensity." Then from the WP L2 notes "Level 2 workouts are similar to Level 1 in that they are fairly high intensity (~ 90-95% 2K intensity). "

01:43.4 pace is 90% of 01:33.1 & 95% of 01:38.2 which hopefully makes more sense?

Also from the WP L3 notes, same paragraph: Sample workouts include Continuous 12K (beginning at shorter distances in the fall and progressing to even longer distances by spring); 2 x 6K (with 7-8’ recovery between pieces); and 15 x 3’ (with 1’ recovery between pieces).

Emphasis added.

FWIW I think that ~12k continuous at 90% of 2k velocity r24 (low end of the recommended rating range) would be one munter of a workout, if it's even doable.

Nik Fleming last year set a 40s WR for 2k at 5:57.5 (1:29.4), and for 10k at 33:03.9 (1:39.2). 90% of his 2k pace would be 1:39.3. See the problem? There's no way in the world he could do 20% more distance at 10k WR pace and10k WR rating minus 4 to 5 -- as a matter of routine, in training. He couldn't do it even once, at any rating.

IMO if you can do a consecutive 13k at 1:43.4 >r24< you can do 2k r32-34 at better than 1:33.1.

[KevJGK]

Nik Fleming last year set a 40s WR for 2k at 5:57.5 (1:29.4), and for 10k at 33:03.9 (1:39.2). 90% of his 2k pace would be 1:39.3. See the problem? There's no way in the world he could do 20% more distance at 10k WR pace and10k WR rating minus 4 to 5 -- as a matter of routine, in training. He couldn't do it even once, at any rating.

IMO if you can do a consecutive 13k at 1:43.4 >r24< you can do 2k r32-34 at better than 1:33.1.

I see what you mean Nav.

I have been having a look back at the WP notes and found this paragraph from MC's later remarks:

COMMENTS ABOUT LEVEL 3
This is what most people would refer to as "steady state" rowing. Just find a fairly comfortable pace that can be held for 10-15K for starters. At the beginning of a training cycle, I find that 2K * 1.156 is a pretty realistic pace for 10K, but you may be a little faster or slower. My advice is to pick a distance and make sure to select a challenging but achievable pace......

The full notes are here: http://www.eudemonia.co.uk/wp%20notes.pdf

Regarding rating, the notes say: I think a figure like 10mps is a very good approximate rate in most situations. I would rarely like to see anyone at LESS than 10mps, but have no problem seeing more.

I have been thinking about your comments regarding Nik Fleming's amazing World Records. I wonder if faster rowers in general may be disadvantaged by the suggested L3 paces?

THIS IS MY REASONING.

It is generally accepted that the potential split for an unknown distance can be calculated by applying a constant factor to a known split such as in Pauls Law where for every doubling of the distance 5 seconds is added to the 500m split. This means that a person capable of rowing a 2K @ 02:00 could target 8K @ 02:10. Similarly a 01:30 person could target 01:40. In the case of the 02:00 split the 8K @ 02:10 requires 78.7% of 2K watts. For the 01:30 2K the 01:40 8K requires 72.9% of 2K watts.

In other words, the faster a 2K, the larger the watts percentage decrease required to produce (for instance) a 10 second slower pace.

Taking this example to an impossible extreme, In the case of a 01:00/500m 2K the 01:10 8K goes from 1620 watts to 1020 watts which is just 62.9% of 2K watts.

In practice this means that faster rowers require a larger percentage reduction in their 2K watts than slower rowers to arrive at an equally challenging L3 12K split. The WP as it stands may therefore be superficially easier for slower ergers to adhere to as the suggested L3 paces are expressed as a percentage of 2K pace which gives equal percentage diferentials.

This observation is by no means meant as anything other than my attempt to understand Nav’s observation regarding Nic Flemings 2K & 10K world records in respect of the WP L3 suggested paces.

[NavigationHazard]

Cheers,

IMO the first point about Level 3 in the WP is that there really aren't pace, rate, or duration/distance guidelines. There are suggested ranges, yes, particularly in the Mishnah (Caviston's commentaries, notes and exchanges). But the spectrum of possibilities is so large that they're not all that helpful practically speaking when designing/doing workouts.

The 'original published version' of the WP says this about Level 3:

Level 3 workouts are generally continuous in nature (though occasionally the interval format is used), performed at a consistent pace for a total duration of ~ 12K. The intensity is ~ 85-90% of 2K velocity. The focus is on endurance more than speed, though a shorter Level 3 workout can approach Level 2 intensity. Level 3 workouts are typically performed 2-3 times/week, accounting for ~ 22-25% of total training meters. Sample workouts include Continuous 12K (beginning at shorter distances in the fall and progressing to even longer distances by spring); 2 x 6K (with 7-8’ recovery between pieces); and 15 x 3’ (with 1’ recovery between pieces).... (snip) ...In general, ratings for Level 3 will probably be in the range of 24-28....

However the Mishnah offers a rather different explanation:

COMMENTS ABOUT LEVEL 3
This is what most people would refer to as "steady state" rowing. Just find a fairly comfortable pace that can be held for 10-15K for starters. At the beginning of a training cycle, I find that 2K * 1.156 is a pretty realistic pace for 10K, but you may be a little faster or slower. My advice is to pick a distance and make sure to select a challenging but achievable pace, for example 10K @ 2:00. Execute the 10K with as much consistency of pace
and rate as possible. Next time, follow the same plan except allow the pace to increase to 1:59 for the last 500-1000m. Don't get greedy. Don't go faster even if you feel like you can or want to. Next time, go to 1:59 a little earlier. And so on. Always leave yourself feeling like you could have done more (in fact, you should be anxious to try). It's tempting on a day you feel good to just put the pedal to the metal and go for it, but be disciplined and wait till you have several weeks of training and are in a strong position to get a fast time. A common training error is to push too fast too soon, leading to burnout and a mental barrier that will be hard to overcome. Another approach to Level 3 is to keep a constant pace (say, 2:00) and gradually increase the distance by 500m or so every week. It depends on what your specific goals are and how much time you have to train. I find it is possible to increase pace and distance simultaneously every week but you need to be patient and not try to improve too quickly. (Believe me, I speak from experience.)

Okay then. 85% of my 2k PB velocity, as per the OPV, is 1:34.7/.85 = 1:51.4; 90% is 1:45.2. Alternatively, 1:34.7 * 1.156 = 1:49.5. Do those paces make sense for me in the context of routine ~10k (+) training sessions?

Not really. First of all, there's a huge difference between 10k r28 @ 1:51.4 (slowest pace/highest rating implied by the OPV) and 10k r24 @ 1:45.2 (fastest pace/lowest rating). Here's a case where SPI values have some utility in comparing work demands. The former target is 9 spi, the latter 12.5 spi. The difference is sufficient enough that I'm inclined to categorize them as wholly different workouts. For me the training value of a 1:51.4 10k r28 would be negligible; a 10k at 1:45.2 r24 would be useful and doable. And if the row were broken up into intervals, 10k worth of (say) 3'/1' pieces would have to be around 1:41 pace to have much import.

As for the 1:49.5 target pace suggested by the Mishnah, looking back at some of my more gonzo Level 4 workouts, I find that on 9/19/09 I did 9763m in 36' of WP level 4 rowing. This works out to 1:50.6 pace r19. Fairly obviously I could go more than 1 second faster over 10k taking from 5 to 9 more strokes per minute. Again, there would be a huge difference in intensity depending on actual rating. And the same comment holds regarding intervals.

Caviston in his comments complicates matters further when he reports Level 3 workouts he actually proposed to do in the context of his own Crash-B prep. Here's his 'ideal' workout progression from 2002-03:

This year my
ideal or hypothetical training week was structured very similarly to last year:
SUN: Level 3 (3K/2.5K/2K through mid-December; 4 x 2K for Jan-Feb)
MON AM: L4 (60')
MON PM: L4 (2 x 60' until Dec., but eventually cut back to 2 x 40')
TUE AM: L4 (50')
TUE PM: L3 (15K interval, usually 12 x 1250m)
WED: L1 (usually 4 x 1K; occasionally 8 x 500m or 4K pyramid)
THU AM: L4 (5 x 10')
THU PM: L4 (70')
FRI AM: 2K trial (goal = 5-6 sec slower than estimated best possible time)
FRI PM: L3 Continuous (built up to 35K week by week, beginning from 18K)
SAT: L4 (70')

Here we have a range of total work distances from 7.5k-8k worth of intervals (Sun) through 35k continuous (Friday by the end of the prep campaign). The Sunday interval session is roughly 25% shorter than the ~12k recommended in the OPV. The Tue interval session is 25% longer. And the Fri continuous row starts out 50% longer and builds up to 192% longer. Patently, sessions that disssimilar were not (and could not have been) intended to have been done at the same target pace and rating. You cannot do for 35k of continuous rowing what you can hold for 12 x 1250m (presumably on ~90" rest).

So what did Mike actually do for these Level 3 sessions? Here are his reported session bests:

2002-3:
2K: 6:21.4
60': 16,132m (1:51.6)/1180 strokes (AVG 19.7)/13.67 m/stroke
5 x 10': 13,876m (1:48.1)/1068 strokes (AVG 21.4)/12.99 m/stroke
12 x 1250m: 1:43.6
35K: 1:49.2
4 x 2K: 1:39.2
4 x1K: 1:34.8

Of the Level 3s, the 4 x 2k session at 1:39.2 works out to 4% slower than 2k velocity. The 12 x 1250m session at 1:43.6 works out to 8.7% slower than 2k velocity. And the 35k session (objectively gonzo and not likely to be part of any normal L3 schedule) works out to 14.5% slower.

Based on this, I'm inclined to think that the "~85-90% of 2k velocity" in the OPV at best is poorly expressed. I think Caviston actually means that Level 3 normally should be done 5-10% slower than 2k velocity. I would add "depending on the workout, on any effect you're trying to get by adjusting rating, and on where you are in your training cycle." Continuous rowing in this interpretation will be slower than intervals. Additionally, the shorter the intervals the faster it will be possible to do them, other things like rating and total work volume and work/recovery ratio equal.