Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

G-dub · Post by **G-dub** » March 5th, 2016, 2:12 pm

Awhile back, Greg posted a paper about Peak Power. In it, one rows 10 seconds all out at max drag to determine highest watts seen. Then one trys to improve on that over time. They require beginning at a full stop. I wonder why? Its probably so that you dont get an advantage when comparing to others or to the standards set in the paper, right? Seems like my back would appreciate it if it was a slight rolling start and I would only be doing it to see my own improvements over time. You guys think there is a compelling reason not to? I am certainly trying to be careful about breaking rules since I know they are very important to people.

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » March 5th, 2016, 4:10 pm

G-dub wrote:Awhile back, Greg posted a paper about Peak Power. In it, one rows 10 seconds all out at max drag to determine highest watts seen. Then one trys to improve on that over time. They require beginning at a full stop. I wonder why? Its probably so that you dont get an advantage when comparing to others or to the standards set in the paper, right? Seems like my back would appreciate it if it was a slight rolling start and I would only be doing it to see my own improvements over time. You guys think there is a compelling reason not to? I am certainly trying to be careful about breaking rules since I know they are very important to people.

The important point here has nothing to do with others and is not a bloody competition. The purpose is your own improvement fercrissake. A dead start is the same each time. It would be very difficult to do duplicate rolling starts every time. Don't be concerned about other people and their gd rules. Do what is going to be of most benefit to you. If you are really concerned about your back when doing Peak Power tests, either don't do them or figure out what is causing your back problem and adjust your technique to avoid it.

Bob S.

G-dub · Post by **G-dub** » March 5th, 2016, 6:21 pm

Actually Bob, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the start wasnt as important as stroke 4-10 or so, so maybe its not a big deal to start dead. Nothing technically wrong with the back, just didnt want to jerk it too hard if I didn't need to. I dont think Ive ever used max drag, so should be a pretty slow start anyway!

Shawn Baker · Post by **Shawn Baker** » March 5th, 2016, 7:09 pm

If you are rating high enough (which you need for peak power) then even if your first stroke is a bit easier, you'll still likely see max wattage before 10 seconds

Shawn Baker · Post by **Shawn Baker** » March 5th, 2016, 7:11 pm

Pretty sore at the moment, will take a few easy days

But today some fairly hard work

Airdyne bike x 5 min wu

80lb KB swings x 10

Jump rope x 100

Standing broad jump wearing 50lb vest x 5 (84")

Standing broad jump x 20 (sans vest) all 100-104"

Row 100m x4 on 3 min rest (target was below 14.5)

Hi box squats to 500lbs 5 sets of 5 (fairly easy)

Took 10 min super cold shower this morning (getting better able to tolerate it)

Tomorrow easy one and then off on Monday so I can drive to California

gregsmith01748 · Post by **gregsmith01748** » March 5th, 2016, 11:35 pm

G-dub wrote:Awhile back, Greg posted a paper about Peak Power. In it, one rows 10 seconds all out at max drag to determine highest watts seen. Then one trys to improve on that over time. They require beginning at a full stop. I wonder why? Its probably so that you dont get an advantage when comparing to others or to the standards set in the paper, right? Seems like my back would appreciate it if it was a slight rolling start and I would only be doing it to see my own improvements over time. You guys think there is a compelling reason not to? I am certainly trying to be careful about breaking rules since I know they are very important to people.

Hi, I think the reason for the static start is because you are trying to train the alactic energy system and also help to drive improved peak power. The way that you do this is by working with the biggest load. That is done by having the drag at max and the wheel stopped. Even though you hit your maximum power a few strokes after starting, I think a big part of the training effect is that first stroke.

G-dub · Post by **G-dub** » March 6th, 2016, 9:16 am

10-4 on the peak power.

zacclowes · Post by **zacclowes** » March 6th, 2016, 6:28 pm

how hard is it to improve max power and 1 minute power?
never done any training on this type of stuff, i haven't been rowing very long and have been following the pete beginner plan which is long rows mixed with weekly intervals of 500m - 2000m and a few reps of each so never really near max or 1 minute power. yesterday my brother was having a go on my rower and we had a little competition first seeing who could hit the higher wattage (i think numbers were in the 600s) and then each doing a 1 minute max rep to see who was faster. I won and my finishing distance of 344 is only 17m off the british record listed on the concept2 website for my age + heavy weight.
how hard is it to get those extra metres? I'm thinking i might try some specific short sprint training after I've finished the pete plan and see if i can beat it.
definitely faded at the end of the minute so finishing the pete plan to get a base would help there.
with trying to hit the max watt number the limit seemed to be that i couldn't pull any quicker, i was pulling as hard and fast as i could and the number stayed around the same even though i was really trying, almost like it was freewheeling at times....but i realised afterwards the damper setting was on 5. would it offer more resistance and let me hit a higher number if i maxed that setting?

left coaster · Post by **left coaster** » March 6th, 2016, 6:51 pm

gregsmith01748 wrote:
G-dub wrote:Awhile back, Greg posted a paper about Peak Power. In it, one rows 10 seconds all out at max drag to determine highest watts seen. Then one trys to improve on that over time. They require beginning at a full stop. I wonder why? Its probably so that you dont get an advantage when comparing to others or to the standards set in the paper, right? Seems like my back would appreciate it if it was a slight rolling start and I would only be doing it to see my own improvements over time. You guys think there is a compelling reason not to? I am certainly trying to be careful about breaking rules since I know they are very important to people.
Hi, I think the reason for the static start is because you are trying to train the alactic energy system and also help to drive improved peak power. The way that you do this is by working with the biggest load. That is done by having the drag at max and the wheel stopped. Even though you hit your maximum power a few strokes after starting, I think a big part of the training effect is that first stroke.

If I use muscle soreness as a gauge, then doing standing starts is definitely more demanding than rolling. I've taken to doing standing starts on all my interval work. After doing this for a while rolling starts start to feel a little lame, although they are better for things like the C2C where intervals are set up as time trials.

Shawn Baker · Post by **Shawn Baker** » March 6th, 2016, 7:27 pm

Likely a little bit of practice (and higher drag) will get you a better low pull- of course spending time getting stronger (off the rower) will ultimately get you the most watts

lindsayh · Post by **lindsayh** » March 6th, 2016, 7:41 pm

zacclowes wrote:how hard is it to improve max power and 1 minute power? how hard is it to get those extra metres? I'm thinking i might try some specific short sprint training after I've finished the pete plan and see if i can beat it.definitely faded at the end of the minute so finishing the pete plan to get a base would help there.
with trying to hit the max watt number the limit seemed to be that i couldn't pull any quicker, i was pulling as hard and fast as i could and the number stayed around the same even though i was really trying, almost like it was freewheeling at times....but i realised afterwards the damper setting was on 5. would it offer more resistance and let me hit a higher number if i maxed that setting?

The 1 minute is now a C2 ranking so have a look at the World rankings on the c2 site to see how far it is going. I suspect that the BR is probably a bit out of date now or will be very soon. The 40+ went to 399 last week. Be careful though as that many extra meters is huge - look at it in Watts and you will get the idea.
You can definitely train for power and sprints. Have a look back on this thread to start and have a look at dir-moe on the ISS Forum. that is the online name for Dirk Moeller who is very fast indeed and does a lot of sprint training specifically for power. Have a good look at Shawn's training on the threads here - mostly/all directed at power and distances from 1km down.
Even 4 to 6 weeks will make a difference. Do short intervals between 100 and 300 with reasonable rests and at 100% for each one. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week at the most. Still need to do some fitness stuff and meters as well of course.
Some weights will definitely help as well.
For the Drag factor (DF) you should look at higher - 160-180 or maybe even more. You need to look at DF not damper setting which could mean anything depending on how clean the machine is. The DF at 5 setting could be anything from 85 to 130. you also need to train to fast stroke rate - sprinting is normally >sr40.

zacclowes · Post by **zacclowes** » March 7th, 2016, 1:41 pm

yeah looking at it the record seems very low compared to whats on the logbook rankings for other age groups, just nobody has logged a fast 1 minute in that age group.
I'd better try it soon

gaining 20m and beating it seems more realistic than 60m when/if its pushed up to 400m

Edward4492 · Post by **Edward4492** » March 7th, 2016, 3:37 pm

Well, to give ya a frame of reference in the 60-64 LWT the WR of 354m was set by Steve Roedde. I'm moving into that class this year and pulled 333m at age 59. That's only 21m......I'm not in Steve's league; not even the same zip code.I'd be lucky to add another 2-3m to my pedestrian PB. As your're finding out I'm sure 20m is a HUGE amount of distance to make up in a one minute event. With that said....go for it and see how good you can get!

Cyclingman1 · Post by **Cyclingman1** » March 7th, 2016, 6:32 pm

Edward4492 wrote:pulled 333m at age 59

DF? you're usually around 100.

Edward4492 · Post by **Edward4492** » March 7th, 2016, 9:40 pm

Actually was at 93 df for that one. Just started to creep it back up. Did my first 15k tonight, df set at 100. I think the super low df's may have hurt me a bit. The only piece I raised the df for was the 100m @ 17.5.

15k @ 1:07:31 142w 2:15.0 HR 125 19r 73kg

I'm not gonna bore everybody with these sessions, I'll roll it back over to the dialy training thread. Plan is 100k weeks, see how it goes. Had to fight the temptation to push up the pace and just hang on the HR cap of 125. I'll post weekly totals for those who are interested. Can't tell much from one piece, but I sure feel good.

As you said Jim, perfect"guinea pig" controlled experiment. Starting 2k 7:10, ending 2k 7:xx (6:xx?).

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