Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

off-topic

[Steve G]

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10x2000m/1:00r
Feb 24 2011

....time......meter..../500m....s/m...♥
1:18:37.1 --- 20000 ---1:57.9 --- 23

7:43.9 - 2000 - 1:55.9 - 23 - 137
7:47.6 - 2000 - 1:56.9 - 23 - 137
7:49.7 - 2000 - 1:57.4 - 23 - 140
7:51.9 - 2000 - 1:57.9 - 23 - 142
7:50.7 - 2000 - 1:57.6 - 24 - 140
7:54.3 - 2000 - 1:58.5 - 23 - 140
7:54.5 - 2000 - 1:58.6 - 24 - 139
7:54.5 - 2000 - 1:58.6 - 24 - 139
7:54.8 - 2000 - 1:58.7 - 23 - 141
7:55.3 - 2000 - 1:58.8 - 23 - 142
r425

Congrats, Mike.

Zatopeks are long ones.

I will try to get one in this weekend.

I think I might also be ready for some continuous HM rows at various levels of effort, including all out.

I'll also try to get one or more of those in this weekend.

The 1:58 @ 23 spm you just did for the "Steamroller" session predicts a 1:46/7:04 2K.

9.3 SPI

ranger

Sounds like you have a busy weekend ahead Rich, Zapoteks and some HMs including all out !
Your 7.04 prediction for Mike off a few weeks training is pretty good I reckon, similar to your BIRC row.
Will you also be doing this HM session this weekend ?

Steve

[snowleopard]

ranger,

What time did you train yesterday (Feb 23rd)? How many meters did you cover in the session?

Bump!

Bump!

[lancs]

off-topic

[mikvan52]

View Detail
10x2000m/1:00r
Feb 24 2011

....time......meter..../500m....s/m...♥
1:18:37.1 --- 20000 ---1:57.9 --- 23

7:43.9 - 2000 - 1:55.9 - 23 - 137
7:47.6 - 2000 - 1:56.9 - 23 - 137
7:49.7 - 2000 - 1:57.4 - 23 - 140
7:51.9 - 2000 - 1:57.9 - 23 - 142
7:50.7 - 2000 - 1:57.6 - 24 - 140
7:54.3 - 2000 - 1:58.5 - 23 - 140
7:54.5 - 2000 - 1:58.6 - 24 - 139
7:54.5 - 2000 - 1:58.6 - 24 - 139
7:54.8 - 2000 - 1:58.7 - 23 - 141
7:55.3 - 2000 - 1:58.8 - 23 - 142
r425

Congrats, Mike.

(snip)
The 1:58 @ 23 spm you just did for the "Steamroller" session predicts a 1:46/7:04 2K.

Rich:
(w/o sarcasm)
Whence comes being able to predict a 2k based on rate restricted workouts such as the one at hand? Do you make stuff like this up?
Didn't you used to say 6-8x500m/3:30 rest (open rate) was the best predictor... or, 3 x 1k/8' rest (open rate) averaging the pace/500m...?

I have not done this 10x2k/1'r ever before.
It seems to get easier to bear after the 6th rep. One artifact; I didn't seem to be in any distress ever and by the latter reps was truly breathing easy. If I were going on feel alone, I would have let the rate go up from 23 to possibly 26-28 spm and put more strain on my CV system w/o really going into Anaerobic threshold... This brings up the topic of "creep" that we can discuss some other time.

I would guess that a steady diet of this 10x2k/1'r workout would build aerobic strength but not the speed needed for maximal performance at 2k. It should be combined w/what you call "sprinty stuff" but, most importantly, 60% of most work should be much easier than this workout.
So; What I am saying here is that I feel that this isn't a workout I would do, say, 3 days a week in preparation for 2k to 5k max pieces... Once a week would be good... or once every two weeks.
Of course I am saying this from a perspective of not being interested in maxing out at the HM or FM as you are.

I do uninterrupted 2x10k/4' rest OTW once in a while.

Once the dust settles here and you complete yours, would you be willing to do a workout of my specification?
It wouldn't be a hard one... It would be like "returning a favor" though.
Give it some thought.

[RonnieColeman]

Apologies for the last off-topic post, didn't realize the new change in policy. That takes the fun out of things here, my guess is it gets a lot less busy in this thread. Last question before I duck out and it's a genuine one: ranger, do you ever plan to 2k test (and go for a PR) at a race venue?

[ranger]

Whence comes being able to predict a 2k based on rate restricted workouts such as the one at hand?

This 10 x 2K (1 minute rest) workout is done at middlin' UT1.

MIddlin' UT1 is 2K + 12

Sure, 2K is harder to predict from a mild, UT1 interval workout of this sort than from an all out continuous row, but you could check this prediction pretty easily, as I will try to do this weekend, too.

Just row a HM right through, all out, and see what you get.

A HM is done at 2K + 11.

So, if you do 1:57 for the HM, that would predict a 1:46/7:04 2K, too, which seems reasonable, given your injury and long break in training this winter.

The 50s lwt WR for a HM is Rod Freed's 1:45, done when Freed was 52 or 53, as I remember.

At "double the d, add 3," the HM @ 1:57 would predict 2:00 pace for a FM.

That's the 60s lwt WR: 2:48.

You could also check that pretty easily.

Just row a FM.

See what you get.

For the FM, the length of the row limits your HR necessarily.

In the FM row, you would be ill-advised to let your HR float up to your anaerobic threshold, as you did in the 10 x 2K session.

To make it to the end, you would have to keep your heart rate at middlin' UT1.

UT1 rows are excellent 2K predictors.

ranger

[ranger]

Sounds like you have a busy weekend ahead Rich

No busier than usual.

I have been doing 20K of "Steamrollering" every day, followed by 1-2 hours on my bike.

The trial would just put a clock on it.

The clock doesn't change the distance done (20K) or the level of effort (middlin' UT1).

The clock is irrelevant, as far as the training goes.

Biking is biking, too, whether you put a clock on it or not.

Your body doesn't know that you are timing it.

The clock doesn't make you faster or slower, or any more or less fit.

The clock doesn't help the effectiveness or efficiency of your rowing--or hinder it.

I bike at 19 MPH on the Kurt Kinetic.

ranger

[ranger]

would guess that a steady diet of this 10x2k/1'r workout would build aerobic strength but not the speed needed for maximal performance at 2k. It should be combined w/what you call "sprinty stuff" but, most importantly, 60% of most work should be much easier than this workout.

To each his own, I guess.

I like to do most of my work with a middlin' UT1, rather than with a UT2 HR.

This is the kind of rowing that I did every day, sometimes twice a day, for a couple of years when I first took up erging, slowly bringing my pace down from 2:05 to 1:50.

Then I did a 60min trial and found that, all out, I could do 1:48/16.7K for 60min.

At "double the d, add 3," that predicts a 1:37/6:28 2K.

In my first race (6:27.5), when I was 52, I found that's just what I got.

The surprise, though, was to hear that this was four seconds under the 50s lwt 2K WR at the time (6:31.6).

So, I lost weight and broke the 50s lwt WR three times: 6:30, 6:29, 6:28.

That was almost a decade ago, when I was rowing poorly (10 SPI) at max drag (200+ df.).

I am just now returning to this 20K middlin' UT1 rowing.

I now row well (13 SPI) at low drag (119 df.).

It will be interesting to see how the lower drag (i.e. improved efficiency) and higher stroking power (i.e., improved effectiveness) affects the pace I can get to on these middlin' UT1 20K rows that I like so much.

When I am fully into them, I think I will do them at 26 spm ("Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy"), although it might take a while before I can do that 26 spm at middlin' UT1.

Rowing at 119 df. and 13 SPI, my ratio at 26 spm is still _very_ high.

3.6-to-1

.5 seconds for the drive.

1.8 seconds for the recovery

That's pretty leisurely stuff.

Even at 26 spm, I get to rest almost two seconds between drives.

Thererfore, over the full 20K row, I am only working about 15 minutes.

I am resting for almost an hour.

ranger

[ranger]

I am now on vacation for a couple of weeks (It is Spring Break here at at the University of Michigan).

So I'll now have lots of time to row and bike.

ranger

[snowleopard]

ranger,

What time did you train on Feb 23rd and now many meters did you cover?

[ranger]

The ultimate 2K training, what I am now trying to do now, is to learn how to row well at low drag (e.g., 119 df.) for a FM @ 22 spm.

If you can do that, everything else involved in training for a 2K follows--automatically, predictably, mechanically, inevitably, as a matter of course, etc.

Rowing well for a lightweight is 13 SPI.

13 SPI @ 22 spm is 1:46 pace, 2:29:20 for a FM.

That's under the lwt Open FM WR.

A FM is done, stready state, at a middlin' UT1 heart rate.

For me, that's 155 bpm.

ranger

[hjs]

off-topic

[hjs]

off-topic

[ranger]

How does a workout like this help one's training?

Help?

Yikes.

As you just did it, it not only doesn't help.

It's a disaster.

If you row a lot of meters at 9.3 SPI, you destroy your technique.

You train yourself to be bad--permanently.

I am not training that way at all.

I use the 10 x 2K workout to train myself to row well--to maximize my mechanical and technical effectiveness and efficiency.

That's the whole purpose of the workout--and motivates its design.

As I explained, I like the breaks to work on technique.

I row the workout at 13 SPI, taking good strokes.

Etc.

The workout gives me an opportunity to take a lot of good strokes (1500?) at a comfortable (middlin' UT1) heart rate and a relatively low rate (22-23 spm).

Then, when I shorten the distance, I can raise the rate, heart rate, and pace, while still rowing well.

If I row well, at 27 spm, I am going 1:40, for a 60s lwt, faster than WR 2K pace.

At 30 spm, I am going pb 2K pace (1:37).

At 32 spm, I am going 10 MPS, 1:34 pace, 6:16 for 2K, my 2K target.

ranger