Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

In my distance/UT1/Level 3 rowing, which is the best measure of technical effectiveness and efficiency, when I row my best on the erg, I now pull 12 SPI (e.g., 1:45 @ 25 spm) at 123 df.

This is rowing well for any lightweight of any age.

Back in 2002-2003, when I rowed my best, I used to pull 10 SPI (e.g., 1:52 @ 25 spm) at max drag (200 df.?).

There's that seven seconds per 500m again!

With this advance in technique on the erg and my upgrade from a Peinert to a Fluid 1x, if I can transfer my advances in technique on the erg to my OTW rowing, and I think I can, I will have succeeded in moving from (1) and (2) to (3) and 4) on the list of elements of boat speed.

Elements of boat speed (in order of importance):

(1) physical capacity
(2) training
(3) technique
(4) equipment
(5) rigging

I have always had the physical capacity and the training, the two most important elements of boat speed.

It's time to figure out rigging, if I want to run the list to the end.

ranger

[whp4]

It's time to figure out rigging

That will require learning from others, and understanding technical matters. You're screwed!

[ranger]

It's time to figure out rigging

That will require learning from others

Yes, in order to be the best, I will have to observe others closely, figure out what they are doing wrong, and do better, as I have done with the three most important aspects of boat speed: physical capacity, training, and technique.

ranger

[ausrwr]

And you know exactly WHAT about technique on the water?

So, you reckon you're going to do 2 minute 500s on the water for 5k 'when you're fully trained', while Jim Dietz can 'only' do 2:06s.
If Dietz does 2:06s, you'll do 2:26s.

With all due respect to your physicality, Dietz is an Olympics and World Championships level rower, with 40+ years of technique and training that you will never get close to. Partly because you don't have the time, and partly because you won't listen to anyone else.

So, you're going to observe everyone else to "find out what they're doing wrong"? Perhaps take a look at yourself first... Seriously: you might be able to pick the eyes out of the technique of everyone, but unless you're going to try and fix yours, it doesn't matter a whit.

Get yourself a coach. It's been said before, and can bear being said again. What you think you're doing and what you are actually doing in a boat can often be completely different things.

What else: oh yes, calibrate your SpeedCoach properly. And remember that the erg is unlike a boat. The erg doesn't care how you put the power down. The boat does. When you come to race, you're going to realise that.

[mikvan52]

(exerpt #1) if I can transfer my advances in technique on the erg to my OTW rowing....



(exerpt #2)
Elements of boat speed (in order of importance):

(1) physical capacity
(2) training
(3) technique
(4) equipment
(5) rigging

Not that anyone is really interested in figuring out what is truly going on with going from the erg to the water... but here's my 2 cents (beyond the posturing that goes on on this thread)

(exerpt #1)
The easy way to advance technique for OTW is by training On the Water (surprise!)
There is no way to quantify advances in OTW technique by looking at erg scores. Times on the erg just don't transfer... For Example: Look at Stephansen (WR lwt holder OTErg) : He can cut it OTW even though he's so much better than everyone else indoors!
There are rowers who do very well in both arenas: They're the ones who concentrate on the water and refrain from putting all their eggs in one basket by only training on the erg and then expecting great stuff OTW

(exerpt #2)
To put Elements in ordinal an number hierarchy is to grossly misjudge the intricacies of each of these elements as they relate with the others.
IOW: No #1, #2, #3:: Each element goes hand-in hand with another and is not "more important".

I, personally cannot justify putting several things on this list ahead of another.
An ordinal list seems to be a "male thing"...

Rich: You have great erg form as all your video clips show... But with all those meters of erg training all you seem to be able to do it drive the bow of the boat down into the water....

Care to TT any water meters at any distance or effort and post them to show otherwise?

Here's what I can do at 22-23 spm otw on an off day... and I'm slower than RIch on the erg

Rich:
Why not go flat out at low rate and see if your self-assessed superior Erg form can match this which I did on a day after race intervals:

Drills for 7.5 k ... then a 24 minute timed piece... very satisfying low rate stuff.

The 24 min piece:

24:02.2 - 5612 meters - 545 strokes - 2:08.4
1k @ 21.5 spm - 2:13 pace -95 strokes
2k @ 21.5 - 2:10 - 190 - 8:49.4 elapsed -2:12.3 avg
3k @ 22.5 - 2:09 - 285 - 13:07.9 - 2:11.3
4k @ 22.5 - 2:06 - 380 - 17:21.4 - 2:10.1
5K @ 24.0 - 2:05 - 481 - 21:32.3 - 2:09.2
THEN I KICKED IT IN FOR THE LAST 612 METERS OF THE 24' PIECE

(from my blog on the UK site)

[ranger]

all you seem to be able to do it drive the bow of the boat down into the water

Nope.

Again, you are looking at two-year old video--and the Peinert.

I corrected that difficulty long ago.

My catches in the Fluid are also considerably better than my catches in the Peinart because of the stiffness of the rigging and (for whatever reason) a better connection to the footplate.

I no longer bob the boat; it runs entirely flat.

I don't know how fast I am going yet (I seem to have lost my impeller), but I would guess that my stroking is now comparable to yours.

The run of the Fluid is amazing compared to the Peinart.

Some of this is weight (I am lighter; the boat is lighter) and some is probably due to other things (hull design, etc.).

Yes, this makes it so that you can go _very_ fast at low rates.

I don't see any reason to row at low rates most of the time, though.

As one the erg, I am going to shoot for 27 spm OTW in my everyday rowing.

Then when I race 5K OTW, I will try to rate 30-32 spm, just as I would on the erg.

ranger

[ranger]

There is no way to quantify advances in OTW technique by looking at erg scores.

No, certainly.

But erg scores predict all sorts of things about OTW scores, technique held constant.

Both erg scores and OTW scores decline together with age.

The handicap for a 60s OTW rower over 1K is 27.2 seconds, 13.6 seconds per 500m.

This 13.6 seconds per 500m is right around the gap on the erg between the Open WRs and the 60s WRs for 2K.

The two most important elements of boat speed are physical capacity and training, not technique.

ranger

[ranger]

The easy way to advance technique for OTW is by training On the Water

Sure.

That's why I row OTW every day, probably as much as you.

Technique is only the third most important element of boat speed, though.

So I row on the erg and cross-train every day, too.

ranger

[ranger]

There is no way to quantify the contribution of physical capacity and training to boat speed by reference to OTW technique.

If you can't rate up, but others can, you are dead in the water.

ranger

[ranger]

To put Elements in ordinal an number hierarchy is to grossly misjudge the intricacies of each of these elements as they relate with the others.

This numbered hierarchy is not mine.

I just lift it from the general literature on rowing by those who know best.

ranger

[ranger]

Why not go flat out at low rate and see if your self-assessed superior Erg form can match this which I did on a day after race intervals:

mikvan52 wrote:

Drills for 7.5 k ... then a 24 minute timed piece... very satisfying low rate stuff.

The 24 min piece:

24:02.2 - 5612 meters - 545 strokes - 2:08.4
1k @ 21.5 spm - 2:13 pace -95 strokes
2k @ 21.5 - 2:10 - 190 - 8:49.4 elapsed -2:12.3 avg
3k @ 22.5 - 2:09 - 285 - 13:07.9 - 2:11.3
4k @ 22.5 - 2:06 - 380 - 17:21.4 - 2:10.1
5K @ 24.0 - 2:05 - 481 - 21:32.3 - 2:09.2
THEN I KICKED IT IN FOR THE LAST 612 METERS OF THE 24' PIECE



(from my blog on the UK site)

These are low rates for me OTW, but not at all low rates for you.

In fact, when you race 5K OTW, you tend to prefer something close to 2:05 @ 24 spm (10 MPS).

So this is race rate for you, not low rate.

If you held your technique together, rather than trading rate for pace, I suspect you could also come very close to your 5K pb on the erg at 24 spm, rather than 28 spm.

To do so, you would only have to pull 11 SPI, which you are entirely capable of at 24 spm.

When I am fully trained up for it, for 5K OTW, I will rate 30-32 spm, as I do on the erg.

And on the erg, for 5K, I will pull (at least) 11 SPI, too.

The difference here is not technique, but physical capacity and training, the two most important elements of boat speed.

ranger

[mikvan52]

all you seem to be able to do it drive the bow of the boat down into the water

Nope.

Again, you are looking at two-year old video--and the Peinart.

I corrected that difficulty long ago.

My catches in the Fluid are also considerably better than my catches in the Peinart because of the stiffness of the rigging and (for whatever reason) a better connection to the footplate.

I no longer bob the boat; it runs entirely flat.

I don't know how fast I am going yet (I seem to have lost my impeller), but I would guess that my stroking is now comparable to yours.

The run of the Fluid is amazing compared to the Peinart.

Some of this is weight (I am lighter; the boat is lighter) and some is probably due to other things (hull design, etc.).

Yes, this makes it so that you can go _very_ fast at low rates.

I don't see any reason to row at low rates most of the time, though.

As one the erg, I am going to shoot for 27 spm OTW in my everyday rowing.

Then when I race 5K OTW, I will try to rate 30-32 spm, just as I would on the erg.

ranger

#1 : You do not train on the water as much as I do.

#2: If you know so much why can't you even spell the name of the boat in which you allegedly sculled millions of meters?
See: http://www.peinert.com/about_us.html

#3: My prediction is that you will not ever explain why you go so slow in a boat when you go so fast on the erg.
BTW: The answer does not have anything to do with rate.

#4: If you've sorted out your sculling form... then post a video of same.

#5: Why do you insist on reinventing (the training) wheel? Erging your way to sculling success without developing sculling technique (by heading to the water 1st each day (not after erging) does not work... No one has ever done it. You won't either.

#6 (repeat suggestion) Why not post some of you training times with rates for your allegedly smooth OTW work?

[ranger]

You do not train on the water as much as I do.

Now that my right side is healed and I have my Fluid, I am training OTW every day.

Do you train OTW twice a day--or three times?

ranger

[ranger]

#3: My prediction is that you will not ever explain why you go so slow in a boat when you go so fast on the erg.

I don't go slow in a boat.

As I have mentioned, in my Fluid, I think I go just as fast as you (at the same rate).

We'll soon see.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Why not go flat out at low rate and see if your self-assessed superior Erg form can match this which I did on a day after race intervals:

mikvan52 wrote:

Drills for 7.5 k ... then a 24 minute timed piece... very satisfying low rate stuff.

The 24 min piece:

24:02.2 - 5612 meters - 545 strokes - 2:08.4
1k @ 21.5 spm - 2:13 pace -95 strokes
2k @ 21.5 - 2:10 - 190 - 8:49.4 elapsed -2:12.3 avg
3k @ 22.5 - 2:09 - 285 - 13:07.9 - 2:11.3
4k @ 22.5 - 2:06 - 380 - 17:21.4 - 2:10.1
5K @ 24.0 - 2:05 - 481 - 21:32.3 - 2:09.2
THEN I KICKED IT IN FOR THE LAST 612 METERS OF THE 24' PIECE



(from my blog on the UK site)

.. when you race 5K OTW, you tend to prefer something close to 2:05 @ 24 spm (10 MPS).

So this is race rate for you, not low rate.

In this generalization: You know nothing of which you speak.

I have recently rowed Head races at a 30 and won my age group... also at 28 spm... also lower (you are correct there).

Why do you insist on a rate as a measure of performance... Pace wins... not rate.

Perhaps (!) you merely like to engage in jerking my chain! Much like you jerk an erg chain while sequestered in your "dungeon"..
You'd do better to go out and face living competitors OTW than to generalize about things you've not experienced in your virtual world here (online).

When your first test of your bizarre theories?