Sure are filled with ''ifs''. Heck anyone can say ''if''. Like ''if'' I shit gold bricks for a week I'll be wealthy. I have about the same chance at that as you do for most of your ''ifs''.ranger wrote:Nope.mikvan52 wrote:Rich speaks primarily about 2003!
Right now.
The next 10 days.
Let's review.
In the 40s-70s male divisions, both hwt and lwt, beside my three 50s lwt WR rows in 2003, when I was 52, and for the last WR row, just a month shy of 53, to my knowledge, no WR has ever been set outside of the year that the erger entered the age division--e.g., 40, 50, 55, 60, etc.
This Saturday, even though I am just a few days shy of 60, I have a good chance of setting the 55s lwt WR.
In fact, if I can do 8 x 500m @ 1:34 tomorrow, which I will try to do, the prediction is that, this weekend, I will break the 55s lwt WR by 10 seconds.
Uprecedented stuff!
This should also be noted:
To prepare for this race in Chicago this weekend, I have not yet done either (1) distance trials or (2) hard sharpening, which, together, can get you up to 15 seconds over 2K.
So!
If I indeed pull sub-6:30 in Chicago on Saturday, over the next two months, as I do final race preparation, both distance trials and hard sharpening, I have a chance of rowing as fast as 6:16, 22 seconds under the current 55s lwt WR, 26 seconds under the current 60s lwt WR.
_Entirely_ unprecedented stuff.
Things are getting _very_ exciting!
ranger
The Two Types of Training
59m, 5'6" 160lbs, rowing and skiing (pseudo) on the Big Island of Hawaii.
What's the forum for Rich?ranger wrote:You're a bit short on your history, Mike.mikvan52 wrote:We know that he will not show his 8 x 500m
I have done scores of 8 x 500m sessions.
I don't do sessions so that I can show them to you.
I do sessions because they are an integral part of my training.
That doesn't have anything to do with you.
ranger
To give you the opportunity to NOT show anything
Show them to your adoring public.. not me!
See, JimR?
I'm right again: No ranger posts of what he's done.
At this time of the evening he's depressed, so he gets nasty.
I've just conceded to him that he can pull a chain over a cog faster than I can... and look what I get!
Claws and nails...
He probably tried his 8 x 500 and fell short of 2003...
Oh, my. Sigh... he'll be back to distance training on the erg (skipping the water) and more professed IND_Vs .... with no record of same...
Where's the insurance salesman in Ground Hog's Day when we need him?
BING!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xwCy_ai ... re=related
The game's up, Rich. You're into your decline now... 60 years old and no form.. done..
13 SPI on all strokes?... gone...
8x500m at 1:34?... gone
OTW stroke?... never bothered to learn one...
ego?.... remnants...
17,000m for one hour on the erg? You've got to be kidding...
16,000m for an hour? Maybe...
Busted flush? Definitely!
I think I see the issue here ... ranger's racing schedule requires him to keep his weight in check. After the disaster in Detroit in a couple weeks and "official" racing is done. Then he can strap on the feed bag and water bottle and do all his hwt pbs ... while claiming to be a lwt.mikvan52 wrote:See, JimR?ranger wrote:I have done scores of 8 x 500m sessions.mikvan52 wrote:We know that he will not show his 8 x 500m
I'm right again: No ranger posts of what he's done.
No OTW because as a hwt he would fail miserably ... and lwt for a long time is too much.
My theory anyway ... but I like it.
JimR
You are walking rproof that this is a false statement ... so you only look [more] stupid when you repeat it.ranger wrote:The best OTW rowers are also the best ergers.JimR wrote:What do erg times this year have to do with my assertion that Mike is a better rower than you?
Perhaps a language quiz for you is in order ... which one of these words does not belong ...
1) ranger
2) pompous
3) self-centered
4) windbag
5) rower
If the question is too hard you can buy a hint for $1020 ... which I will turn over to Henry and Roy asap.
JimR
JimR
The so-called professional advice out there about how to train for rowing is stunningly chaotic and needs clarifying.
Mike Caviston, with his Wolverine Plan, suggests that you should row most of your meters at 18 spm and 12 MPS (meters per stroke).
When in doubt, trudge!
John Rupp, with his admiration for the Danish lightweight ergers, suggests that you should row most of your meters at 42 spm and 8 MPS (meters per stroke).
And PaulS, with his emphasis on OTW style and efficiency, suggests that you should row most of your meters right in between, at about 30 spm and 10 MPS (meters per stroke).
Whew!
This advice couldn't be more chaotic, more (absolutely!) contradictory.
The resolution of these contradictions is just this:
Each of these types of rowing is excellent, especially if it is kept free of compromise so that it can accomplish its appointed purposes, but each serves a different purpose and therefore should be done at a different stage in training.
Caviston's low rate rowing should by those who don't yet know how to row (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights).
Rupp's 8 MPS should be done during final sharpening, just before you race.
And PaulS's 10 MPS should be done in between.
Caviston's 12 MPS, at least in conception (more on this below, because conception gets abandoned in execution) is work on effectiveness.
Rupp's 8 MPS is work on speed.
And PaulS's 10 MPS is work on efficiency.
The trouble is, none of these folks recognize either the limitations in what they suggest or the strengths in what the others suggest, and all of these folks undermine their own principles when they come to giving practical advice, that is, when they come down to specifying what you should actually do from day to day, so that these principles can be pursued, however partially, by a whole community, whether that community is a crew, a whole rowing club, or the rowing community at large.
So the whole affair ends up in chaos and therefore does no good for anyone, if not real harm.
For instance, Caviston doesn't even mention that his rowing is just work on effectiveness, doesn't even say what effective rowing is, and in the end, in his practical advice, loosens up his concentration on effectiveness so far that, for most people, it is fine by him for weaker rowers to do this work with massive _ineffectiveness_, that is, with a stroking power that is adjusted to the rower's 2K.
IMHO, this is _serious_ mistake.
Why in the world would a rower want to do millions of meters rowing badly in an attempt to learn to row well?
Ridiculous stuff.
When in doubt, trudge at 18 spm, rowing badly.
Why?
Who knows?
Perhaps this:
It's something to do, and better for you than watching television or playing video games all day long, eating potato chips and drinking coke.
PaulS indeed tells you, up front, that his program is work on technical efficiency, but he doesn't even mention, really, that efficiency without effectiveness is a pretty lame affair, not very useful at all.
Then, like Caviston, in order that everyone and his brother can do his training program and still feel good about themselves, he recommends that his rowers do most of their rowing while lily-dipping (e.g, 9 SPI for lightweights, etc.), not even taking full strokes, that is, rowing with massive ineffectiveness.
IMHO, this is _serious_ mistake.
You just have to ask again:
Why in the world would a rower want to do millions of meters rowing badly in an attempt to learn to row well?
Ridiculous stuff.
When in doubt, keep the rate up, even if you have to lily-dip, barely putting your oars in the water.
Why?
Who knows?
Perhaps this:
It's something to do, and better for you than watching television or playing video games all day long, eating potato chips and drinking coke.
Finally, Rupp's recommendation that you row all of your meters at 42 strokes a minute, is also appropriate in certain circumstances, but he doesn't even mention that in most circumstances, it is _massively_ inefficient, not to mention slow, because massively ineffective, too.
He not only doesn't tell you that efficiency is useless without effectiveness,
he doesn't tell you that speed requires both, and then a rate of 42 spm, too.
The result of all of this bad advice is a sad affair.
While all of these rowing coaches, trainers, and oddball fitness experts seem sincere in what they recommend, they are not doing anyone any service, and are probably doing everyone a lot of harm.
As a result of their advice, the whole community both rows and trains badly; doesn't know why no one gets better and most people get injured, sick, stale, and/or discouraged, and is smugly satisfied with the underlying principles of their present practice, even though these principles, while having a distant kernal of truth, when put to practice, are narrow, exclusive, and in the end, abandoned.
ranger
Mike Caviston, with his Wolverine Plan, suggests that you should row most of your meters at 18 spm and 12 MPS (meters per stroke).
When in doubt, trudge!
John Rupp, with his admiration for the Danish lightweight ergers, suggests that you should row most of your meters at 42 spm and 8 MPS (meters per stroke).
And PaulS, with his emphasis on OTW style and efficiency, suggests that you should row most of your meters right in between, at about 30 spm and 10 MPS (meters per stroke).
Whew!
This advice couldn't be more chaotic, more (absolutely!) contradictory.
The resolution of these contradictions is just this:
Each of these types of rowing is excellent, especially if it is kept free of compromise so that it can accomplish its appointed purposes, but each serves a different purpose and therefore should be done at a different stage in training.
Caviston's low rate rowing should by those who don't yet know how to row (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights).
Rupp's 8 MPS should be done during final sharpening, just before you race.
And PaulS's 10 MPS should be done in between.
Caviston's 12 MPS, at least in conception (more on this below, because conception gets abandoned in execution) is work on effectiveness.
Rupp's 8 MPS is work on speed.
And PaulS's 10 MPS is work on efficiency.
The trouble is, none of these folks recognize either the limitations in what they suggest or the strengths in what the others suggest, and all of these folks undermine their own principles when they come to giving practical advice, that is, when they come down to specifying what you should actually do from day to day, so that these principles can be pursued, however partially, by a whole community, whether that community is a crew, a whole rowing club, or the rowing community at large.
So the whole affair ends up in chaos and therefore does no good for anyone, if not real harm.
For instance, Caviston doesn't even mention that his rowing is just work on effectiveness, doesn't even say what effective rowing is, and in the end, in his practical advice, loosens up his concentration on effectiveness so far that, for most people, it is fine by him for weaker rowers to do this work with massive _ineffectiveness_, that is, with a stroking power that is adjusted to the rower's 2K.
IMHO, this is _serious_ mistake.
Why in the world would a rower want to do millions of meters rowing badly in an attempt to learn to row well?
Ridiculous stuff.
When in doubt, trudge at 18 spm, rowing badly.
Why?
Who knows?
Perhaps this:
It's something to do, and better for you than watching television or playing video games all day long, eating potato chips and drinking coke.
PaulS indeed tells you, up front, that his program is work on technical efficiency, but he doesn't even mention, really, that efficiency without effectiveness is a pretty lame affair, not very useful at all.
Then, like Caviston, in order that everyone and his brother can do his training program and still feel good about themselves, he recommends that his rowers do most of their rowing while lily-dipping (e.g, 9 SPI for lightweights, etc.), not even taking full strokes, that is, rowing with massive ineffectiveness.
IMHO, this is _serious_ mistake.
You just have to ask again:
Why in the world would a rower want to do millions of meters rowing badly in an attempt to learn to row well?
Ridiculous stuff.
When in doubt, keep the rate up, even if you have to lily-dip, barely putting your oars in the water.
Why?
Who knows?
Perhaps this:
It's something to do, and better for you than watching television or playing video games all day long, eating potato chips and drinking coke.
Finally, Rupp's recommendation that you row all of your meters at 42 strokes a minute, is also appropriate in certain circumstances, but he doesn't even mention that in most circumstances, it is _massively_ inefficient, not to mention slow, because massively ineffective, too.
He not only doesn't tell you that efficiency is useless without effectiveness,
he doesn't tell you that speed requires both, and then a rate of 42 spm, too.
The result of all of this bad advice is a sad affair.
While all of these rowing coaches, trainers, and oddball fitness experts seem sincere in what they recommend, they are not doing anyone any service, and are probably doing everyone a lot of harm.
As a result of their advice, the whole community both rows and trains badly; doesn't know why no one gets better and most people get injured, sick, stale, and/or discouraged, and is smugly satisfied with the underlying principles of their present practice, even though these principles, while having a distant kernal of truth, when put to practice, are narrow, exclusive, and in the end, abandoned.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 25th, 2010, 4:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
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snowleopard
- 6k Poster
- Posts: 936
- Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 4:16 am
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snowleopard
- 6k Poster
- Posts: 936
- Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 4:16 am
Over the next two weeks, I'll do a lightweight 2K that catches my earlier performances of nearly 10 years ago, and all without distance trials or hard sharpening.mikvan52 wrote:The game's up, Rich. You're into your decline now... 60 years old
Result: 2K, 1:37 @ 32 spm (12 SPI).
Then over the next two months, I will do distance trials and hard sharpening to get the remaining three seconds per 500m I need to reach my target of 1:34/6:16.
Training is coming along _great_.
When I hit my target at the end of April, my training over the last decade will have made me a dozen seconds faster over 2K, rather than a dozen and half seconds slower, my predicted performance if I had followed traditional training plans over this decade.
Competitively, the swing is times, then, is a half a minute over 2K.
There's that seven seconds per 500m again!
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Just a heads up on this.
This year, only seven lightweights over the age of 30 have logged times under 6:30 for the 2K.
So I will be in pretty sparse company if I pull sub-6:30 over the next couple of weeks in one or both of my last two races.
The current 40s and 50s lwt WR-holders can no longer row 6:30.
The current 55s lwt WR never could, and now misses it by a _huge_ margin, e.g., approaching 20 seconds.
I will be 60 in a few days.
RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (30–70) | Current 2010 Season
1 Tamas Varga 31 HUN 6:08.1 RACE
2 Eskild Balschmidt Ebbesen 37 DEN 6:15.8 RACE
3 Mark Mitchell 35 Bexhill-on-sea East Sussex GBR 6:18.1 RACE
4 Peter Ording 33 GER 6:22.9 RACE
5 Ulrik Westrup 43 DEN 6:24.0 RACE
6 Tim Male 34 Tideway Scullers Sch/ Thames Turbo Sigma Sport GBR 6:25.9 RACE
7 PGary Curtis 43 Libovice Veslařský Klub Ohře/Sub7 IRC CZE 6:27.1 RACE
8 PAndré Costa 32 Porto Alegre RS BRA 6:31.1 IND
9 Paul Siebach 51 Oakton VA USA 6:31.2 RACE
10 Simon Herbert 36 East Sussex GBR 6:32.7 RACE
ranger
This year, only seven lightweights over the age of 30 have logged times under 6:30 for the 2K.
So I will be in pretty sparse company if I pull sub-6:30 over the next couple of weeks in one or both of my last two races.
The current 40s and 50s lwt WR-holders can no longer row 6:30.
The current 55s lwt WR never could, and now misses it by a _huge_ margin, e.g., approaching 20 seconds.
I will be 60 in a few days.
RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (30–70) | Current 2010 Season
1 Tamas Varga 31 HUN 6:08.1 RACE
2 Eskild Balschmidt Ebbesen 37 DEN 6:15.8 RACE
3 Mark Mitchell 35 Bexhill-on-sea East Sussex GBR 6:18.1 RACE
4 Peter Ording 33 GER 6:22.9 RACE
5 Ulrik Westrup 43 DEN 6:24.0 RACE
6 Tim Male 34 Tideway Scullers Sch/ Thames Turbo Sigma Sport GBR 6:25.9 RACE
7 PGary Curtis 43 Libovice Veslařský Klub Ohře/Sub7 IRC CZE 6:27.1 RACE
8 PAndré Costa 32 Porto Alegre RS BRA 6:31.1 IND
9 Paul Siebach 51 Oakton VA USA 6:31.2 RACE
10 Simon Herbert 36 East Sussex GBR 6:32.7 RACE
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 25th, 2010, 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
I am now gettting a _beautifully_ relaxed base pace stroke (1:40 @ 30 spm, 10 MPS, 11.7 SPI) and race pace stroke (1:34 @ 36 spm, 9 MPS, 11.7).
Both at exactly 11.7 SPI, one at exactly 10 MPS, the other at exactly 9 MPS.
So, I am now working within a very tight band of racing rates (30-36 spm) and paces (1:40-1:34), rowing well--and doing nothing else, other than some long bouts of cross-training, now and again, to keep my weight at a minimum.
I would like to get down to 8% body fat and hold it there for a year.
I should get there by the end of April.
I'll hold my workouts here for a year or so, too.
This is perfect training.
My lowest pace in training over the next year, once I am warmed up, will be WR 2K pace.
I'll be race ready--all the time.
No resting necessary.
No foundational rowing necessary.
No work on fitness necessary.
No UT2 rowing necessary.
No low end UT1 rowing necessary.
Just quality stuff, day after day--high-end UT1, AT, TR, and AN, rating 30-36 spm, pulling 11.7 SPI.
Stroke feels great: effective, efficient, fast.
ranger
Both at exactly 11.7 SPI, one at exactly 10 MPS, the other at exactly 9 MPS.
So, I am now working within a very tight band of racing rates (30-36 spm) and paces (1:40-1:34), rowing well--and doing nothing else, other than some long bouts of cross-training, now and again, to keep my weight at a minimum.
I would like to get down to 8% body fat and hold it there for a year.
I should get there by the end of April.
I'll hold my workouts here for a year or so, too.
This is perfect training.
My lowest pace in training over the next year, once I am warmed up, will be WR 2K pace.
I'll be race ready--all the time.
No resting necessary.
No foundational rowing necessary.
No work on fitness necessary.
No UT2 rowing necessary.
No low end UT1 rowing necessary.
Just quality stuff, day after day--high-end UT1, AT, TR, and AN, rating 30-36 spm, pulling 11.7 SPI.
Stroke feels great: effective, efficient, fast.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 25th, 2010, 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
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hjs
- Marathon Poster
- Posts: 10076
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
- Location: Amstelveen the netherlands
hahaharanger wrote: This year, only seven lightweights over the age of 30 have logged times under 6:30 for the 2K.
ranger
look her : http://www.is-schlaak.de/ergebnisse/index_kettwig.html
Nobody ranks there results, only in this race you can find dozens of sub 6.30 ...... And this is only the German open more or less.
Oh and then there is that little thing that you don,t have a change in hell to break 6.30
But I tell yoo this, you can win your 1000$ back
The conditions are, if you row a sub 6.30 as a lightweight in one of your next races your debt is gone, but if you don,t do the 1000$ becomes 50% more, so if you take this on and loose You pay me $ 1500, if you win you are of the hook.
In Chicago and Detroit over the next two Saturdays, I'll row right in the middle of my training range (30-36 spm) at 33 spm.
If I row right through the races, I'll pull sub-6:30.
Then I will be ready for distance trials and hard sharpening, lifting the rate to 36 spm for racing, 40 spm for 8 x 500m sessions and 1K trials, and 46 spm for 500m trials.
ranger
If I row right through the races, I'll pull sub-6:30.
Then I will be ready for distance trials and hard sharpening, lifting the rate to 36 spm for racing, 40 spm for 8 x 500m sessions and 1K trials, and 46 spm for 500m trials.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
As in 2003, this work should reach its culmination at BIRC and WIRC next year, where I will put both the 55s and 60s lwt 2K WRs at 6:16, and implicitly at least, the 40s and 50s lwt WRs, too.
No lightweight over 37 has ever rowed 6:16.
Right now, at 37, Eskild E. is rowing 6:16.
RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (30–70) | Current 2010 Season
1 Tamas Varga 31 HUN 6:08.1 RACE
2 Eskild Balschmidt Ebbesen 37 DEN 6:15.8 RACE
ranger
No lightweight over 37 has ever rowed 6:16.
Right now, at 37, Eskild E. is rowing 6:16.
RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (30–70) | Current 2010 Season
1 Tamas Varga 31 HUN 6:08.1 RACE
2 Eskild Balschmidt Ebbesen 37 DEN 6:15.8 RACE
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)