The Two Types of Training

mikvan52 · Post by **mikvan52** » February 24th, 2010, 5:35 pm

John Rupp wrote:
(I) have no interest to waste any time boating.
...
the U.S. team sucks at the Worlds and Olympics.

troll city...

do not feed

Only an ignorant person could really mean this.
FWIW John is not ignorant... He just wants a rise ...

We could direct him to Mike Teti's record of World Champ's w/the US men's 8 , their WR for the 2k distance in the heats (Athens) and their gold...

What would be the point?
John will say the 8 is not important...and it was too long ago (2004)
But, OTOH, Rich speaks primarily about 2003!

If anyone is interested: Listen carefully to the commentary... a whole lot of recent successes cited: the 4, Volpenheim.. etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS8iuVSuRkU

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » February 24th, 2010, 5:37 pm

John Rupp wrote:
peterhowd wrote:From what I've seen, most rowers consider erging a necessary evil useful ... that makes OTW folks chuckle more than a little bit.
That's strange, since I've probably rowed as much as any of them in a day, and have no interest to waste any time boating.

That must be why the U.S. team sucks at the Worlds and Olympics.

What make you think this attitude is limited to the US? It is not.
Of all the problems the US men teams have had, little of it has to do with the erg. Do you have any idea how well the US Women's team has done? They may not have done very well in sculling but if anything erg scores are more likely to be to be indicative of success in sweep rowing then in sculling. ANd the men's team is not too shabby either.

Erging and rowing are different sports. There is less similarity between rowing and erging then there is between riding a stationary bicycle and racing a bicycle (and much less then running on a trail vs a treadmill.)

Show up at a bike race and talk about how good you are on the wind trainer and see what the reaction is. People may be impressed by how many watts you can produce, but if you don't have the skills to ride in a pack at 30 mph with other riders less then 6 inches away on every side, know how to ride smoothly in a rotating pace line or can't descend a mountain road at 50 or 60 mph or have no clue about strategy or teamwork, and they won't consider you a good cyclist.

Edit --Sorry Mike I responded before seeing you request. your right. John is not that dumb.

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » February 24th, 2010, 5:49 pm

KevJGK wrote: I saw a number of olympians at BIRC last year and don't recall any of them chuckling.

I have known several who train the year around (in SoCal) and erg only as an unwelcome alternative on those few days when it is too windy to launch. In the days when I had the opportunity to row on the water, I was chided for wasting too much time erging and wrecking my OTW technique.

Don't misunderstand me. I think that the C2 indoor rower is a great exercise tool and it certainly did a lot for me as part of my post-op cardio re-hab, but it is no substitute for being outdoors, rowing on the water.

Bob S.

mikvan52 · Post by **mikvan52** » February 24th, 2010, 5:55 pm

Also FWIW:

Here's a fav' vid....

Rich would do well to watch the end... r.20 overdistance... These guys "concentrate on the 2k" and do other distances at the same time...

Why can't Rich?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO2RZX7C ... ature=fvwp

ranger historians will remember that a year ago I challenged him to an impromptu 5k... He agreed at first. Then... (need I explain what happened)

"the yellow rose of Ann Arbor"

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 6:19 pm

mikvan52 wrote:Rich speaks primarily about 2003!

Nope.

Right now.

The next 10 days.

Let's review.

In the 40s-70s male divisions, both hwt and lwt, beside my three 50s lwt WR rows in 2003, when I was 52, and for the last WR row, just a month shy of 53, to my knowledge, no WR has ever been set outside of the year that the erger entered the age division--e.g., 40, 50, 55, 60, etc.

This Saturday, even though I am just a few days shy of 60, I have a good chance of setting the 55s lwt WR.

In fact, if I can do 8 x 500m @ 1:34 tomorrow, which I will try to do, the prediction is that, this weekend, I will break the 55s lwt WR by 10 seconds.

Uprecedented stuff!

This should also be noted:

To prepare for this race in Chicago this weekend, I have not yet done either (1) distance trials or (2) hard sharpening, which, together, can get you up to 15 seconds over 2K.

So!

If I indeed pull sub-6:30 in Chicago on Saturday, over the next two months, as I do final race preparation, both distance trials and hard sharpening, I have a chance of rowing as fast as 6:16, 22 seconds under the current 55s lwt WR, 26 seconds under the current 60s lwt WR.

_Entirely_ unprecedented stuff.

Things are getting _very_ exciting!

ranger

mikvan52 · Post by **mikvan52** » February 24th, 2010, 6:25 pm

"In fact, if I can do 8 x 500m @ 1:34 tomorrow, which I will try to do, the prediction is that, this weekend, I will break the 55s lwt WR by 10 seconds."

Have you done 8x500m since Sept. '09?

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 6:30 pm

mikvan52 wrote:Rich speaks primarily about 2003!

Really?

Why?

Last year, I had the best 2K time in our age and weight division by three seconds.

This year, when all is said and done, I might have the best 2K time in our age and weight division by 30 seconds.

At the moment, I have the best 2K time in our age and weight division by six seconds, and I haven't even done distance trials and hard sharpening.

I have almost 10 more weeks of training and racing to do before the end of the indoor rowing season (at the end of April).

My 2K is coming down in leaps and bounds.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 6:33 pm

mikvan52 wrote:"In fact, if I can do 8 x 500m @ 1:34 tomorrow, which I will try to do, the prediction is that, this weekend, I will break the 55s lwt WR by 10 seconds."

Have you done 8x500m since Sept. '09?

I haven't done 8 x 500m since 2003.

I have been training to get better, not training to perform.

Different matters entirely.

My pb on 8 x 500m (3:30 rest) is 1:33.5.

I think I can do something at least that good--right now.

By the end of April, I think I will do 1:31.

ranger

JimR · Post by **JimR** » February 24th, 2010, 6:44 pm

ranger wrote:
JimR wrote:Since Mike is a better rower than you
No evidence for that, Jim.

So far this year, we have this:

Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.3
Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6

What do erg times this year have to do with my assertion that Mike is a better rower than you? You who won't get on the water and race anywhere?

Further ... Mike was a WIRC and you were scared to show. Had you actually raced Mike (same moment in time) your 7:11 would have been embarrasing.

JimR

JohnBove · Post by **JohnBove** » February 24th, 2010, 6:53 pm

I'm no particular fan of the Doors or of the Lizard King, but I do, when reading this appalling ode to self, find myself hearing the words, "Father: I want to kill you."

Mr. I-can't-say-enough-about-myself's occasional references to his old man describe a situation of the nut falling very close to the tree. But one doesn't get a sense that the father--who used to walk up and down the flight of stairs in his house carrying cinder blocks, or some such thing--was so pathetically insecure and psychologically needy as is the case to hand. But the difference between the two has clearly taken a heavy toll on the son, whose career the old man very likely found laughable and, in any case, left this gibbering loon in the wretched state that his endless self-aggrandizing daily reveals.

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 6:58 pm

JimR wrote:You who won't get on the water and race anywhere?

I'll race OTW when I am ready.

This year, probably.

By the end of the OTW rowing season this year, I think I can get to 1:51 pace in a 1K.

That should be good enough.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 7:01 pm

JimR wrote:What do erg times this year have to do with my assertion that Mike is a better rower than you?

The best OTW rowers are also the best ergers.

But Mike isn't.

Why?

He can't rate up, keeping his technique in place.

Mike doesn't have a hope in hell of beating me OTW in either a 1K or a 5K if he can't rate up.

And at the moment, he can't.

My guess is that this is not a passing affair.

It's permanent.

He doesn't have the aerobic capacity.

When I am fully trained up for it, I'll rate 38 spm for 1K OTW, just like I do on the erg.

Mike has never run into competition with fitness of that sort.

Why?

There hasn't been any.

ranger

mikvan52 · Post by **mikvan52** » February 24th, 2010, 7:07 pm

JimR wrote:
ranger wrote:
JimR wrote:Since Mike is a better rower than you
No evidence for that, Jim.

So far this year, we have this:

Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.3
Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6

What do erg times this year have to do with my assertion that Mike is a better rower than you? You who won't get on the water and race anywhere?

Further ... Mike was a WIRC and you were scared to show. Had you actually raced Mike (same moment in time) your 7:11 would have been embarrasing.

Jim: I think Rich has shown that he can outdo me at 2k on the erg.. I'm not too proud to admit that. Two 6:41's in the last two years is good.

He might nip Brian Bailey's 6:42 60-65 lwt WR next year...

I do wonder about his ability at a lwt 5k and beyond... I think I've got him there. He's lost his distance legs it seems..

This thread is getting somewhat dull though...
We know that he will not show his 8 x 500m or anything that isn't in a public venue.. That's his nature.

This is too bad .. we might learn how effective and comprehensive his RWB training is... and see his progress

The big issue remains his ability to transition to the water...

Here's my prediction... I agree with you: No OTW races by him this summer in a 1x at any distance. To show inferiority is out of the question for him.

I lived with 8 years of it (inferiority) in the single before I broke through... Inferiority isn't a big deal... If he'd only realize that he needs the actual experience if he ever wants to advance.

He might try to enter the HOCR in 2011 w/o having raced in any head race...
If he gets in.. WOW.. what a spectacle that would be..

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 7:21 pm

Before distance trials and hard sharpening, Mike does about 7:00 for 2K.

At the same point in training, which I will get to in Detroit on March 6th, I will do 6:28.

AT for Mike is 1:45.

AT for me is 1:37.

ranger

ranger · Post by **ranger** » February 24th, 2010, 7:24 pm

mikvan52 wrote:We know that he will not show his 8 x 500m

You're a bit short on your history, Mike.

I have done scores of 8 x 500m sessions.

Over the next 10 weeks, I'll post the results of 10-20 8 x 500m sessions.

Happy to share the results of these sessions, now that I am doing them.

Your request to this point is that I do them when I am not doing them.

That's not reasonable.

I don't do sessions so that I can show them to you.

I do sessions because they are an integral part of my training.

That doesn't have anything to do with you.

ranger