Difficulty of long distances on a ModelB vs newer

[dszil]

Hey all,

Doing the whole marathon thing again for the challenge renewed my curiosity in something I've wondered about ever since learning about Drag factor, etc.

I'm on a ModelB. I have the speed ring (which helps) but my understanding is that my lowest drag factor still is considerably higher than most people set their newer models at. For those of you who've done longer distances on both...or just plain are more knowedgable about this stuff than I...is it markedly more dificult to go long distances on the higher drag factor?

I'm not really looking at finish times (as I tend to ignore them in most of what I do)...just more at the difficulty in actually completing a longer distance. My gut says that several hours in...the lower effort needed per pull would make the lower drag factor easier to keep moving with...but I realize my gut really has no idea!:)!

Just a curiosity thing that's nagged at me for long enough! Truely am comfortable with the answer either way. I have what I have and use it to complete whatever Concept2 convinces me to do in the challenges . But I've always wondered and unfortunately don't have the means (i.e. access to a newer model) to arrive at the answer any way other than asking all of you!

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Dan

[Kangaroo]

WHy not check your drag and compare it to newer models' drag factors? I don't think there is a difference but maybe I'm wrong.

[johnlvs2run]

I had a pm2+, a speed ring, and 14 tooth cogwheel on my B, the same as on the C, D and E. These showed the resistance on the B, as being just about the same as on the C, D and D. In fact if you're using the 15 tooth cogwheel, then the resistance will be less. I additionally used a perimeter ring, which reduced the drag factor resistance to 65, lower than it is usually on the C.

A week before my first marathon, I did 5x 8k at a drag factor of 200, then a week later did the marathon with a drag factor of 77. So I think you can do distance just fine, regardless the resistance. However, a resistance in between (100 to 120) is probably the most comfortable as a balance between strength and one's breathing capacity. Summing up, you can adjust the resistance to be the same as on the later machines, however I do prefer a lower resistance for distance.

The pm1 monitor, however, is (1) SLOWER and (2) more erratic than the pm2-pm4. The most accurate monitor is the pm2. The pm1 truncates the time upward, so if you're doing a 1:58 pace, the monitor will show an average of 2:00 to 2:01 and will vary by as much as a couple of seconds. This is because the conversion of watts to pace on the pm1 is not accurate. If you record the average watts at the end of your pieces, and then convert that manually to the pace, then your time will be more accurate.

Finally, the modelB is slightly faster than the later models of concept2 rowers. The only disadvantage is the balance, where only a couple pounds of weight are on the back legs, to all the rest being on the front, so the erg tends to tip forward unless you place additional weight on the back. The advantages are that (1) the slide is more level and (2) the foot plates are entirely flat and (3) are set at a more appropriate angle (41-42 percent) than on the C, D and E (45-47 percent). I didn't notice significant advantages in the B being faster, but primarily in comfort as to the slide and pushing off of the plates. Over time, the foot plate position probably affected the development of my legs, not having a firm base to push off. Regardless, all of my PB's were set on the B.

[dszil]

Kangaroo--
Sorry...too old-school (PM1)...no can do.

John--
Thanks for all the excellent info! Postings I had read in the past had always lead me to believe a stock ModelB with the ring still was only able to get down to 140-150 or so...that you had to resort to taping cardboard, etc around the wheel-cage to get to the generally accepted-as-best 110-120 range. No idea where I got that from I guess! Like I said above...unfortunately never had a way to check for myself! Glad to see that appears to not be the case!

Though I've never gone beyond a marathon...I haven't really had much of an issue completing longer distances (note: still inside my first year so my collection of longer distances only includes a handful of half's and full's!). I've just wondered...based on my obvious misunderstanding of the drag factor I was running at...whether it was any different "feeling" than a newer model. Like I said...more curiosity than anything else. Glad to hear it isn't the case!

Interesting to hear about the inaccuracy of the PM1 too. Rather than actually checking the math...I'm just going to choose to assume I'm much faster than it says I am :):)

Anyway...thanks again for the info!!!

[TabbRows]

Dan,

I've been doing the bulk of my marathon training on a Model B with speed ring and a PM2 (not PM2+) at home. With the chain on the larger gear wheel and the speed ring not quite 1/2 open, the df runs around 134-138. The erg is in a corner so I do get some blow back to the fan and cage. When I've used my gym's Model D on occassion (mostly for 4x15' pieces @ 5k and 10K paces), I have to set the lever just south of "6" to get the drag between 125-130. And that's after dusting the outside of the wheel housing. On the B I'm creeping up on 24-25spm to maintain a ~ 2:03 pace after 3-4 minutes. On the D, I'm usually able to hold 21/22 for the same pacing. Dropping down to ~2:07 on the B I can slow down to 21-22. For a 2:07 on the D, I feel it takes a bit less compression at the start of the drive and I can even slow down to 19 on occassion.

So I do feel a difference in drag settings, but again, it could be due in part to location of the B and the maintainence of the D than to inherent machine differences.

[Bob S.]

Hey all,

Doing the whole marathon thing again for the challenge renewed my curiosity in something I've wondered about ever since learning about Drag factor, etc.

I'm on a ModelB. I have the speed ring (which helps) but my understanding is that my lowest drag factor still is considerably higher than most people set their newer models at. For those of you who've done longer distances on both...or just plain are more knowedgable about this stuff than I...is it markedly more dificult to go long distances on the higher drag factor?

I'm not really looking at finish times (as I tend to ignore them in most of what I do)...just more at the difficulty in actually completing a longer distance. My gut says that several hours in...the lower effort needed per pull would make the lower drag factor easier to keep moving with...but I realize my gut really has no idea!:)!

Just a curiosity thing that's nagged at me for long enough! Truely am comfortable with the answer either way. I have what I have and use it to complete whatever Concept2 convinces me to do in the challenges :D . But I've always wondered and unfortunately don't have the means (i.e. access to a newer model) to arrive at the answer any way other than asking all of you!

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Dan

What PM do you have? As I remember, on my old model B with a numberless PM, which I assume is what is now called a "PM1," I was limited to 59:59 on the timed workouts. Isn't there some sort of similar limit for distance pieces? Can you set a PM for a marathon? Will it display the complete time for a marathon or will it stop at 59:59 and then start over again? I didn't do anything longer than 59:59 on my model B until I got a PM3 for it, so I didn't ever see what the clock would do if you went to the full hour and past. I just know that you can't set the timer for that long a period.

Bob S.

[dszil]

TabbRows--
Interesting. Now I'm back to wondering

Bob--
Yep...I'm on a PM1. It does indeed reset at 59:59 and 9999 meters. Not the end of the world though as both keep ticking along (just from 0 again). So the next 2195 I hit after the 3rd time reset (unfortunately not a sub-3hr kinda guy) = the end and the time then equals 3hrs plus what's showing. For a half...its just the next 1097 after the first time reset. Not as easy as the rest of you have it with being able to program it in...but easy enough.

-Dan

[DragFactor]

Another data point: I run a B with a speed ring and a PM3. With the vents just over half closed and on the big cog I read DF=130. This should be and is equivalent in feel on the pull to about 120 on a 14 tooth cog (14/15*130=121.3)

Cheers,
Steve.