bye

[larkl]

I finally heard from the orthopedic surgeon. One of my knees got torn ligaments in a skiing accident many years ago and I had to have it surgically messed with. They also took out a piece of torn meniscus. So now i have arthritis in my knee.
I thought he would say the rowing machine was fine. (from some things he said earlier) But he didn't, he said it compresses the patellofemoral joint a lot and it would aggravate arthritis. Especially if you go at it hard :cry: The whole point of the rowing machine for me was to get a real aerobic workout just like running, breathing hard and my heart rate right up there.
In some ways it's OK with me. I was getting pretty obsessed with rowing as a sport and putting a lot of energy into it - and thinking, just think what I could do if I put that much competitive energy into my non-athletic talents! Rowing is uncomplicated by emotional issues, I can happily work at getting good at it.
I guess I'll be working out on the elliptical. That isn't a sport, nobody notices how well you're doing. Maybe in some ways nicer, just to get a workout, not going for another personal best ...
Laura

[mikvan52]

--- took out a piece of torn meniscus. So now i have arthritis in my knee.
I thought he would say the rowing machine was fine. (from some things he said earlier) But he didn't, he said it compresses the patellofemoral joint a lot and it would aggravate arthritis. Especially if you go at it hard :---

In some ways it's OK with me. ---

Laura

Laura:
Are your ligaments still intact?

I have had similar surgery and have the beginnings of arthritis. Oddly, the erg is just great for me.

You could have a quite different biomechanical profile than me (and might probably have to follow the doc's advice).
Yet.... there may be an alternative...

• Lower your drag factor to 100 (#1 on the resistance setting)
• Give up speed work for a while
• Make certain you engage the drive with the knees adequately far apart (in a straight line between the hips and the ankles)
• Weight train to balance your opposing muscle groups
• Follow a comprehensive and regular stretching routine

Learning to row with premium form and efficiency (yours is probably great already but everyone can improve)

This can be a fun experiment. Since you won't be rowing hard I don't see how it could hurt... Above all listen too people who know more than me.

It's just that I feel that you and I may be similar. It took me 6 years to get back from my surgery to where I am today. But it only took 1 year before I was erging fairly well.

Take it easy and carefully see what happens

[johnlvs2run]

Another alternative - don't go to a doctor.

Or else find one who agrees with you.

[PaulS]

Definetly get a second opinion, especially if "Eliptical Okay" and "Rower Bad". Perhaps your current doc thinks that you will overcompress at the knee, but we know that you would follow good technical practices.

Rowing has been studied and indicated as good rehabilitation for the knee. There are few activities which allow as low of impact on the knee joint, do not require support at the knee from gravity, and allow the participant to regulate the level of stress quite precisely, all while providing a good cardio and strength workout for virtually the entire body.

IMO, of course.

[Citroen]

But he didn't, he said it compresses the patellofemoral joint a lot and it would aggravate arthritis.

Perhaps you should ask him to back that claim up with some research papers. He may be a damper ten anchor hauling idiot or he may have never rowed on an ergo (or a boat with a sliding seat).

[c2jonw]

Yet.... there may be an alternative...


Lower your drag factor to 100 (#1 on the resistance setting)

Give up speed work for a while

Make certain you engage the drive with the knees adequately far apart (in a straight line between the hips and the ankles)

Weight train to balance your opposing muscle groups

Follow a comprehensive and regular stretching routine

To this I would add placing several layers of tape on the monorail such that the front seat roller bumps it when you are at the maximum allowable knee compression. This will be your cue when rowing to shorten up your return. C2JonW

[Bob S.]

Definetly get a second opinion, especially if "Eliptical Okay" and "Rower Bad".

I missed this on the original post or I would have commented on it then. I have long had a problem with an arthritic right knee, but rowing seems to be much less of a problem for it than other exercises that use the knees. I tried an eliptical at a club a couple of times for warmups when the club rower (not a C2) wasn't available and I found it to be a real killer. I was happy to go back to the rower, which gave me no problem at all. To me, it is incredible to say that an eliptical is okay and a rower bad.

Bob S.

[grams]

I assume your surgery was a success, however you may still be unconciously favoring that leg. Don't get off the erg entirely. Its better for your long-tern exercise program than the elliptical in my opinion. Slow down your stroke and drag and go for endurance. My 2000m times are not great but I am proud of my marathon times.

I blew out my left knee acl skiing in the 70's and didn't know it. I continued to hike, climb, sail, etc for 25+ years. I finally figured out something was wrong when on our exercise bike I noticed my left knee wobbling in and out. My back and ankle were giving me problems too, as they had to compensate for the knee instability all those years. I have arthritis in all my joints, including my knees. I take anti-inflammatory medicine for it.

Thats why I liked my rower, its a non-weight bearing exercise which applies equal force to both legs simultaneously, not alternating stress on one knee at a time.

I opted to have acl replacement and meniscus tear. I knew I was in for a fairly long recovery however I also knew that continued stress on my hip, back and ankle would give me even more problems later.

The surgery went well. I amazed my physical therapist with my great muscle tone from my rowing and we aggressively pursued rehab. Bottom line from the rehab-the exercises and alternate pressure machines (elliptical and bike) put too much stress on my lower back and ankle. The rower (using borrowed slides) and the leg press machine didn't. I rowed with my good leg only and the slides enabled me to more or less keep my recovering leg stationary.

My advice is to get a 2nd opinion-both doctor and physical therapist. I did. My 2nd therapist was a bio-engineer guy who looked at my general body movements.

Consider that your knee is part of a larger system (back-hip-leg-ankle) and make sure the dr/therapist isn't simply focusing on just your knee.

Its been over a year now and my knee is super. I do have to lose the pounds I put on so I am back on the erg gently.

Don't give up. You may have to spend time recovering but if you do it right it buys you more years of activity and is worth it.

grams

[kirbyt]

Laura, don't give up the erg. Has your doctor ever used one? I blew out my right knee twice going back to late 2005. Last year I had an MRI that revealed I'm missing an acl in my knee. The only thing I notice is that my bad knee dips a couple inches lower than my left on the drive. My doctor could hardly believe it but I have very few issues with my knee. I'm not even sure if I will bother with the surgery.

Kirby

[kipkeino68]

You may find some helpful info on this website: http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/index.html

Some people have had success strengthening the muscles around their knees after surgery by walking backwards on a treadmill with an incline.

I would start with 6% incline and 1-2 mph walking forward, and then turn around holding onto the rails. Once you"re doing it, let go of the rails and walk full stride with arms swinging.

[Stefan]

Laura,

It does sound odd. As yong as you do not bend your knees too much at the catch rowing should be pretty kind to the knees compared to most other activities.

Only swimming is perhaps softer.

[larkl]

There were a lot of people in the "knee arthritis" topic earlier who'd been told by their doctors not to row. That's why I thought of asking the doctor, I wanted to check on whether that might be true for me.
My knee is somewhat bent from the arthritis, I think it might be bent inwards.
I don't bend my knee much more than 90 degrees at the catch. My knee that was injured is stiff, that's why. So I'm not kicking off from a deep knee bend. I don't have knee pain from rowing. But then I didn't have knee pain from running either, and the doctor told me unequivocally that running is bad for my knee. So whether it hurts or not is probably not a good index of whether it's doing harm. I'm very careful about my diet and my C-reactive protein, which is a measure of inflammation, is lower than normal, and this helps to keep pain down. I think rowing might be higher impact than an elliptical because on an elliptical you're getting a workout all the time that you're on it, but on the rower you're getting the workout from kicking now and then. But then you aren't standing on the rower, so that's less pressure on the joints.
Possibly the person who thought the people who are harmed by the rowing machine are doing it at damper of 10 was right. I row at a damper of 2.5 or 3 usually. So I'm not kicking against hard resistance. It would be way less impact than running, but the impact happens with your knee more bent.
When I saw the doctor in the summer of 2006 he told me I had arthritis and bone spurs in my knee, he said "anything but running" and he muttered some other options and I thought the other options included the rowing machine - although I may remember wrong, because I'd hardly heard of a rowing machine then.
My ACL and MCL had to be re-attached, there are bolts in my knee. That happened in 1987.
It's probably worth looking into more. I'm certainly able to look through the medical literature myself and see if there's info on rowing and knee arthritis.
It's complicated by the fact that most people who use the rowing machine don't use it right, and using it in different ways would result in different forces on the knee. So is the way I use it, kicking hard against a low drag factor, hard on my knee or not?
Laura

[Stefan]

It's complicated by the fact that most people who use the rowing machine don't use it right, and using it in different ways would result in different forces on the knee. So is the way I use it, kicking hard against a low drag factor, hard on my knee or not?
Laura

Well, you certainly seem to understand the issue properly. I hope you will be able to continue training one way or another even if it would have to be swimming "shudder"

How about kicking softly against a low drag, but at a very high rate?

[johnlvs2run]

is the way I use it, kicking hard against a low drag factor, hard on my knee or not?

There is more speed with a low drag factor on the drive.

Perhaps you're better off with a higher drag, so the speed will be more gradual.

[ccwenk]

I don't have knee pain from rowing. But then I didn't have knee pain from running either, and the doctor told me unequivocally that running is bad for my knee. So whether it hurts or not is probably not a good index of whether it's doing harm. I'm very careful about my diet and my C-reactive protein, which is a measure of inflammation, is lower than normal, and this helps to keep pain down.

Laura

So... You did not have any pain in your knees, but stopped running b/c of bone spurs and arthritis, and now you are prepared to stop rowing because of arthritis that still doesn't hurt?

I am 29 years old and I have arthritis in my left knee and hip, apparently because of a long-undiagnosed leg length discrepancy and many miles of running. Running bothers my knee and hip now, so I don't do it often. Rowing doesn't bother them, so I row and erg. If you don't have pain, why stop?