Do ergs cause low back injuries ?

[gliderguy]

I'm considering the purchase of a Model D. I've been reading this forum and was generally encouraged until I looked at some of the threads on low back problems.

In some cases it sounded as if the posters brought their bad backs to ergs. I other cases, I thought perhaps the erg caused the injury.

Before I spend nearly $1000, does the use of ergs cause back problems in a significant number of users ?

As long as I'm asking, I usually run on the treadmill for about an hour. Is 45 - 60 minutes a reasonable workout time on the C2 ?

thanks,
Doug

[TomR]

In my experience, the erg doesn't cause my back any problems. Some other activities do.

The one exception is sometimes when I do fast, short intervals, I may end up with tightness in the lower back.

I expect if you were to row w/ eggregious form, you could strain a perfectly heathy back.

[barrec]

Generally, I think the erg itself doesn't cause back problems, but bad technique can.

I'm still relatively new to the erg (about 4 months of training now) and have only suffered from back stiffness myself. Once, however, I strained my back improperly lifting something heavy, so I rested from the erg for a week until my back felt better.

If you have no experience on the erg, that's just fine. But take the time to learn proper technique from the beginning so that you don't have to change bad habits later on. Concept2 will gladly give you free materials even without buying the machine, so feel free to take them up on that offer. This includes posters, literature and even demonstration DVDs.

Also, if possible, try asking a local athletic club if they happen to have an experienced rower on staff who could help answer questions and/or acquaint you with the machine. That experience alone might help you decide if you should make the investment.

[jamesg]

I've had back problems from cars and desks, but not from the erg, which on the contrary protects by strengthening. Had a twinge once lifting a 1x out of the water, due to bad posture. If you don't trust the the erg or sculling, try kayak or freestyle.

[zen cohen]

...

Before I spend nearly $1000, does the use of ergs cause back problems in a significant number of users ?

As long as I'm asking, I usually run on the treadmill for about an hour. Is 45 - 60 minutes a reasonable workout time on the C2 ?

thanks,
Doug

I've heard some controversy as to whether the C2's can cause lower-back probs. According to a competitor company who uses the moving flywheel design, the C2 puts much more strain on the lower back than necessary. C2 slides are supposed to mitigate the lower-back strain in some measure. I suspect the poster who mentioned bad technique as giving rise to back problems is prolly correct in most cases where the erger doesn't already have a pre-existing back issue.

I think 45-60 minutes on the C2 is more than reasonable for health and fitness if done at some intensity. I rarely do more than 45 minutes but I usually do it in addition to a weight workout. Check out C2's training plans for some good ideas.

FWIW, I'm happy I bought my C2. It enables a fantastic fullbody workout and is priced very favorably compared to other gym-quality fitness machines, That said, seems that a lot of folks buy them and then rarely use them. (I bought mine from such a person at a bargain price.) If you're worried about this, you might consider finding a gym that has them and working out in it until you're sure you wanna make the leap. Good luck.

[Gerhard]

There are a lot of threads on the subject, I've included one example but there are many more. For me, rowing has helped to strengthen my back and reduce / eliminate lower back pain.

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6367

[Snail Space]

For me, rowing has helped to strengthen my back and reduce / eliminate lower back pain.

Me too. I used to have regular low back pain (a vestige of my former rugby and cricket playing days), but since starting to use the ergo my back has been stronger and less painful. My posture has also improved.

The important proviso is that you learn to row with proper technique.

Cheers
Dave

[DUThomas]

I've never really had back pain, but I found that, with no longer being in my 20s (or 30s!) and with sitting at a computer all day, I've had my share of stiffness and knots in my back. Erging for the past year has pretty much eliminated those problems. I feel that the erg stretches the muscles until the knots are gone.

Like Snail Space, my posture has improved, but there was a lot of room for that.

[chgoss]

I'm considering the purchase of a Model D. I've been reading this forum and was generally encouraged until I looked at some of the threads on low back problems.

In some cases it sounded as if the posters brought their bad backs to ergs. I other cases, I thought perhaps the erg caused the injury.

I have had a few bouts with a bad back since starting erging, but in my case they were all the result of engaging in other excercises like dead lifts, roman chair, in an attempt to improve my erging times..

As long as I'm asking, I usually run on the treadmill for about an hour. Is 45 - 60 minutes a reasonable workout time on the C2 ?

probably all depends on how hard you are going, but a 10k at a 2 minute pace (40 minutes total) is definately considered a good workout.

[RowtheRockies]

I purchased an erg because I injured my back and the pounding of running was exacerbating it. As others have said, I think the erg has helped my back by strengthening it and I know what others mean by saying it has improved their posture. I actually feel taller than I did before

45-60 minutes is more than adequate to get a good workout in.

Rich

[tditmar]

I believe erging with slides and using good form will strengthen one's lower back, but not using slides has the potential to hurt it even with good form.

[Rockin Roland]

I have extensive experience with stationary ergs such as C2 and moving flywheel ergs such as Rowperfect. Comparing the two I must say that the C2 erg is definitely harder on the lower back.

Poor technique alone cannot be blamed for lower back injuries caused by C2 ergs. Over 12 months ago I read a report that was published here in Australia of the alarming number of lower back injuries suffered by elite on water rowers using C2 ergs for training. It would be reasonable to assume that elite on waters rowers wouldn't use poor technique on C2 ergs. Hence it can be attributed to the dynamics, or lack of dynamics, of a sationary erg.

Obviously on this C2 forum your going to get a lot of biased views in favour of the C2 erg from people saying they've never experienced lower back problems. I don't have loyalty to either product hence don't care either way. However, the evidence is out there that they can, but not necessarily will, cause lower back injuries. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy a C2 erg. It's a matter of learning how to manage its use to avoid such injuries just like any other type of sporting equipment.

[Jamie Pfeffer]

Unfortunately, I'm qualified to answer this question: rowing is my favorite activity in this world; and I've had the following surgeries on my back since February 2005: a discectomy in February 2005; a discectomy in April 2005; a facet rhizotomy in January 2006; a posterior-approach lumbar fusion in 2006; a discectomy in March 2007; and an anterior-approach lumbar fusion in April 2007. On October 22, 2007, I'm having an electric-stimulation device inserted in my stomach, with electrodes attached to the spine. That will go along with the screws and hardware that I already have in my back. Though I’ve rowed since 1991, the erg is not responsible for any of this trouble (I have scoliosis and was in an accident in January 2005). Far my exacerbating the problem, the C2 has alleviated much of it. And my physical therapist advocates that I use the erg as much as possible.

In the last few years, I’ve tried every exercise on earth to rehab my back. Nothing works anywhere near as well as indoor rowing. For me, running hurts more than rowing. Treadmills are better for me than roads, but even they hurt too much. Stair machines are also too jarring. And cycling is the worst.

My most recent, and favorite, surgeon has told me several times that rowing is safe for my back. He notes that the Concept2 is a great way to strengthen the entire “posterior chain.” I trust him; he’s the head of spinal surgery at Harvard. Because my wife just finished a surgery fellowship there, she knew him well and respects him very much. If he said rowing is safe for my back, I believe him.

Ironically, except for on my erg, I haven’t been able to sit in almost three years. My law firm has been great about buying me a standing desk for my office and letting me work from home. When I asked the surgeon why it hurts much more to sit at a desk than it does on the erg, he said that the erg requires “active sitting” with the muscles engaged. And when you connect well, you’re not really sitting at all. You’re suspending your weight.

Definitely try an erg before you buy it. But don’t forego it based on dubious science. Rather than hurting my back, the C2 is helping me heal my back. Indeed, I thank it for helping me get my life back. Now if I could just get my wife addicted to it too . . . .

Best,
Jamie

[Rockin Roland]

Jamie,
I'm very surprised that the head of spinal surgery at Harvard would say that the C2 erg is safe for someone with a history of back problems like yourself. Has this bloke used a C2 erg enough to really know. If not then it's big call to make such a statement, regardless of his position.

I'll search around for the report I read about the alarming number of back injuries to elite rowers training on C2s. I assure you that there was no dubious science involved. It was based on actual studies & data gathered by Aust Institute of Sport/Rowing Australia.

[jamesg]

I'd think that elite rowers, who pull very hard and with a very quick catch on water, will certainly be putting their backs at risk on a stationary erg, if they do the same there.

I don't pull that hard, maybe half as much, so run less risk. One of the characteristics of the flywheel ergs is that the load is inertial, so effectively I decide my load.*

A basic safety precaution (incorporated in Law in the EU) is to use machines for their intended purpose only, and the erg is a CV machine. It does it's job if we stay on there for long periods and keep the HR up; this can be done by pulling long relaxed strokes. No need to use it as a proxy for weight lifting.

Indeed if we do some sums, we can easily see that the force on the handle in a LS workout (produced with two legs) will be lower than the forces our grandmothers generate(d) in each single leg when climbing stairs:

60kg x g x 1.2m x rating 20/60 = 240W; quite a workout if you keep going for an hour. It's the length of pull that makes it effective, not the force.

The other point is that keeping fit and reasonably strong is absolutely essential for general well-being. It has to be done somehow, and having an erg at home and ready to roll is highly effective. Any other means will have it's risks too; we have to use them all appropriately so that the benefits outweigh the risks by a big margin.

* Added: not least by using a low DF.