my first 2K time trial

toby · Post by **toby** » January 12th, 2007, 7:52 pm

Paul, re: 6k @ 2k+10 = ready for 2k PB.

Doesn't Paul's Law (translated into math by Nosmo) predict that an all-out 6k should be around 2k+8? I.e., 5*(log2(6000/2000))=7.9

Seems like it would take 8k to be @ 2k+10 if each doubling of distance adds 5s/500m to the pace.

Just checking.

kipkeino68 · Post by **kipkeino68** » January 12th, 2007, 8:32 pm

[quote="PaulS"][PS - Were there really 67 previous kipkeino's?

68 refers to the 1968 summer Olympics at Mexico City. Kip Keino of Kenya upset world record holder Jim Ryun to win the gold medal in the 1500 meter run.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 12th, 2007, 9:11 pm

toby wrote:Paul, re: 6k @ 2k+10 = ready for 2k PB.

Doesn't Paul's Law (translated into math by Nosmo) predict that an all-out 6k should be around 2k+8? I.e., 5*(log2(6000/2000))=7.9

Seems like it would take 8k to be @ 2k+10 if each doubling of distance adds 5s/500m to the pace.

Just checking.

You left out the bit about doing it at any time without balking during the session (NOT "all out", just a work out.). The 6k at 2k+7.5 will be as difficult as the 2k, and if your 2k is solid you will get to question your sanity for the final 1500m rather than just the mere 500m of a 2k, albeit with less physiological failure happening.

toby · Post by **toby** » January 12th, 2007, 10:15 pm

OK, then by that criterion I must be lacking in power relative to aerobic capacity (though neither can be anything to write home about).

Yesterday I did a WP L3 9k @ 1:59.8/500m, slightly negative-split (maybe 0.3s/500m over the whole piece, no sprint at the end or anything like that -- it's just a steady state training piece I do once a week, a little faster each time), and could have kept going without feeling any particular discomfort. HR climbs over the whole piece to about 160bpm for the last 2k or so, well below the 172-175bpm I see on things like L2 3x2k. I've never done a 6k but obviously could go a bit faster than for the 9k (roughly 3s/500m according to Paul's Law) and still feel equally fresh at the end.

But my PB 2k @ 1:49.9/500m two or three weeks ago had the usual painful final 500-600m and the lung-hurling-all-day "post-2k symptoms", and I'm pretty sure that I'm not capable of the 3s/500m increase in 2k speed my 9k (and, by extension, 6k) might indicate. I wouldn't mind it, though!

Anyhow, I'm interested in methods for estimating 2k times from other training pieces, because measuring 2k speed by doing an all-out 2k is sufficiently painful that I don't do one more often than every couple of months. So thanks for the tip and the explanation.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » January 13th, 2007, 9:53 am

Toby,

Since you do a 3x2k, perhaps this will be useful.

A few years ago, I did 3x2k at 2k+6 sec. (The 2k was done at a competition, which helps you go faster.)

I couldn't do 9k "comfortably" at 1.59 but I recently did a 7.20+ 2k/1.50.1

Tom

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » January 13th, 2007, 10:49 am

toby wrote:OK, then by that criterion I must be lacking in power relative to aerobic capacity (though neither can be anything to write home about).

Yesterday I did a WP L3 9k @ 1:59.8/500m, slightly negative-split (maybe 0.3s/500m over the whole piece, no sprint at the end or anything like that -- it's just a steady state training piece I do once a week, a little faster each time), and could have kept going without feeling any particular discomfort. HR climbs over the whole piece to about 160bpm for the last 2k or so, well below the 172-175bpm I see on things like L2 3x2k. I've never done a 6k but obviously could go a bit faster than for the 9k (roughly 3s/500m according to Paul's Law) and still feel equally fresh at the end.

But my PB 2k @ 1:49.9/500m two or three weeks ago had the usual painful final 500-600m and the lung-hurling-all-day "post-2k symptoms", and I'm pretty sure that I'm not capable of the 3s/500m increase in 2k speed my 9k (and, by extension, 6k) might indicate. I wouldn't mind it, though!

Anyhow, I'm interested in methods for estimating 2k times from other training pieces, because measuring 2k speed by doing an all-out 2k is sufficiently painful that I don't do one more often than every couple of months. So thanks for the tip and the explanation.

Was your 2k trial evenly paced? What kind of rates are you using for the 9k and 2k? Do you have a 500m trial result (rate?)?

At first glance it sure does look like a strength issue, but with a bit more information we may narrow it further.

toby · Post by **toby** » January 13th, 2007, 12:14 pm

Paul:

2k PB splits: 1:50.0 1:50.5 1:50.2 1:50.0 1:49.0 @ 26spm avg (28spm in final split)

9k WP L3: 1:59.8 @ 23 spm

I've never rowed a 500m piece (or anything but a 2k) at max effort. Current WP L1 6x500 r3:30 is 1:45.1 @ 28-30spm (the higher rate in later intervals).

Tom:

At the moment I do use my L1 6x500 and L2 3x2k to predict my 2k. Those two workouts are about 8-10s/500m apart, and I can do a 2k at a split time halfway between them. However, I've only rowed three all-out 2k pieces over the past year, using the 6x500 and 3x2k as benchmarks, so I don't have much data to work with. No doubt I would be well off to include more "standard" benchmark workouts (e.g., 4x1k, 6k) in my training, and perhaps more frequent 2k pieces ...

Thanks for input.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » January 13th, 2007, 12:42 pm

Toby,

If you can do 6x500 @1.45, I'm inclined to think you could do 2k a 1.49.0 or faster. But there is a difference between doing a 2k at home (or the gym) and in competition, so your 2k doesn't seem too far off, to my inexpert eye. It looks as though you could pick up a second or two per 500 during a 2k if you worked on getting your stroke rate to 30-31 strokes per min.

I don't think you necessarily need more "benchmark" workouts. The WP has it's own logic and consistency. I think you might benefit from the occasional 3 or 4x1k. It's a miserable session, but my sense is that if has lots of virtues--VO2 max, mental toughness, and more. I believe you can do it at 2k+2 or 3 and get the benefits. Leading up to a 2k, you can increase the pace fractionally for several weeks.

It's too bad the Wolverine Plan thread died, because others following the WP (I am not) probably could be helpful to you.

toby · Post by **toby** » January 13th, 2007, 2:07 pm

Tom,

I re-read the old WP thread from time to time. I always get something new from each re-reading. I'd certainly be up for resurrecting it if there's interest. I'm sure that Mike C has more to offer, as evidenced by his recent contribution to the "I need some inspiration" threadon the UK forum.

At my relatively low level of fitness I'm sure I could make progress with any training plan, but the WP has worked very well for me both mentally and physically. I haven't begun to make use of all the variety in WP workouts, but I probably will do so when my progress starts to plateau. Right now I don't have time for the "full" WP, so I use a "3/4" version (i.e., L1 6x500 instead of 8x500; L2 3x2k instead of 4x2k) just to keep the 4 weekday workouts+warmup under an hour. On Sat-Sun, when I have a bit more time, I do my 3x2k (1:53.1 this morning!) and a 60' L4.

I try to maintain (approximately) the L4 pace/rate relationships for my L1-L3 workouts, which has kept my max rate below 30spm until very recently when my L1 got down to ~1:45. You're probably right that I could trade some rate for pace in an all-out 2k. Maybe next time.

TomR · Post by **TomR** » January 13th, 2007, 3:02 pm

Toby,

If you can do 3x2k @ 1.53, I believe you could go faster than 1.49+ for 2k, assuming you're interested in an unpleasant final 4 minutes. (If my memory is to be trusted, 4x2k @ 1.53 is roughly L2 pace for 1.45/500).

As you note, Mike's counsel is invariably sound.

Tom

toby · Post by **toby** » January 15th, 2007, 12:49 pm

Paul:

Monday is my "off" day, so I tried a 500m piece as you recommended. Paul's Law and my 26 Dec 06 2K PB of 1:49.9/500m @ 26spm suggested a ~1:40 target pace for the 500m. I didn't really know what rate to expect to need since my fastest 6x500 interval is 1:44.3 @ 32spm (last rep from last week).

I tried to negative split the 500m but didn't have enough experience (or oomph) to quite do it. Anyhow:

int pace rate
100 1:41.0 36spm
200 1:40.0 30spm
300 1:38.0 34spm
400 1:37.5 34spm
500 1:38.0 34spm
----------------------
total 1:38.9 33spm

This 500m @ 2K-10s/500m seems to be very close to the regression line for Paul's Law given that it's been 3 weeks since my 2K @ 1:49.9/500m.

I don't think I should do 500m for PB very often. They're so much more fun than a 2K that they could become addictive.

Thanks again for Paul's Law (and to Nosmo for the equations). Very useful for inexperienced folks like me who would like to have some idea of pacing for distances I've never tried before.

DavidA · Post by **DavidA** » January 15th, 2007, 5:45 pm

I know that I need to work on strength vs. endurance. I can do a HM at 2:00, but 2 km at, maybe 1:50.

David

TomR · Post by **TomR** » January 15th, 2007, 8:41 pm

Toby--

Lots of people do the 500 rating 35+ the whole way. It takes a bit of getting used to, and some thrashing results, but you might trim your PB by a little. I'm not sure the result would have any bearing on a 2k, however.

Tom

toby · Post by **toby** » January 15th, 2007, 9:17 pm

Tom, I might try a higher rate if/when I ever do another all-out 500m. For 50 or 60 strokes I can afford to experiment.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » January 16th, 2007, 1:44 pm

TomR wrote:Toby--

Lots of people do the 500 rating 35+ the whole way. It takes a bit of getting used to, and some thrashing results, but you might trim your PB by a little. I'm not sure the result would have any bearing on a 2k, however.

Tom

My feeling is that it is always good to push the limits. If you can row at 45, then you will be smoother at 36. I look at this as a skills issue. No reason for the 45 to anerobic. Lower the drag as low as possible (you can cover the vents) and bring the rating as high as possible. Quit before it is too draining.

This philosophy has helped me greatly in bike racing. I practice spinning in a very log gear with almost no resistance. At the end of most rides I bring it up to 200 rpm for a couple of minutes. I try to do this a couple of times. (I've even once hit 240 rpm for a over a minute on down hill on a fixed gear). This can really help with sudden accelerations. One can save time by not having to change gears. Really helps when getting on someones wheel (i.e. getting into their slipstream) if they go by you quickly. Also it makes it much easier to spin at 100-120 rpm when riding along, which means I'm fresher when the crunch time comes and I need to output higher forces at lower rpm. My understanding is that some track riders can go even higher then 250 rpm