SPM and lats

[zubeldia]

Hi there,

I'm hoping someone might be able to help. I'm quite new to erging, having previously used it sporadically as a form of cross training; however, I recently discovered on-water-rowing and I've now purchased my very own Concept 2 to keep in shape during the colder months. In short, erging is now my chief form of exercise and I've just started to follow the interactive 2K training guide. I'm a lightweight woman (if this is at all relevant): I’ve noticed that when I do a slow UT2 piece with a SPM of about 20 that I seem to employ more of my lats/shoulders, to the extent that it feels a little sore afterwards (not painful – just exercise induced soreness). My question: is this likely a sign of poor technique? It seems easier to engage my legs more when I’m pulling a higher stroke rate. I’d be curious to know if anyone else has these issues.

Thanks,
Z

[johnlvs2run]

It's good to use your lats quite a bit when you row.

[zubeldia]

It's good to use your lats quite a bit when you row.

Thanks, John. I was just a little curious since I don't feel it so much in lats when I'm rowing a faster pace...
Z

[TomR]

Here's a video of what a stoke should look like:

http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/pe ... o_erg.html

Are you pulling early w/ your arms?

Tom

[zubeldia]

Here's a video of what a stoke should look like:

http://www.invernessrowingclub.co.uk/pe ... o_erg.html

Are you pulling early w/ your arms?

Tom

Thanks for the link, Tom. I don't think I'm pulling too early with arms, but I'll check tomorrow when I row a piece.
Z

[RST]

Hi there

I think you have the right symptoms of someone moving to 20 SPM - i.e a greater awareness of muscle pain in lats.

I would generally get more muscle pain in the laegs and lats when doing 20 SPM work. I find it very hard going.

If you look at the video link of Xeno above (hold down teh 'right' key for it to scroll though) you will see his lats engaging at the catch.

I do not think your technique is necessarily wrong.......your are just overloading them (for later benefit).

Get someone to watch your technique (or record it) just to make sure. BTW, your pain in teh lats will go after a lot of 20 SPM work.

Good luck
RichardT

[PaulS]

It's quite typical for a new Rower, when trying lower stroke rates, to slow down the work of their legs, leaving the upper body to do a lot of extra pulling at the finish to get the desired pace target.

Lowering the Rate is a matter of increasing the time for the recovery (expanding the ratio of the stroke cycle), still go after the Drive with the same enthusiasm that you would at the higher rates, the slower flywheel at the catch will resist your efforts just fine. You simply must control the recovery a bit more to keep the Rate/Pace in line with your target.

This way you are still using the legs for the majority of force generation, and can follow through naturally.

Since it sounds as if you are also around a boathouse, have someone with experience watch what you are doing and perhaps they can help out a bit more specifically.

[zubeldia]

Thanks, Richard. The video shows the lat engagement very nicely. Thanks for pointing this out. I don't have anyone to watch for technique but I'll video myself and, if feeling brave, I will upload it to YouTube for folks to critique!

I am finding the 20 SPM work very hard going, too. I'm very much hoping it will pay off!

Z

Hi there

I think you have the right symptoms of someone moving to 20 SPM - i.e a greater awareness of muscle pain in lats.

I would generally get more muscle pain in the laegs and lats when doing 20 SPM work. I find it very hard going.

If you look at the video link of Xeno above (hold down teh 'right' key for it to scroll though) you will see his lats engaging at the catch.

I do not think your technique is necessarily wrong.......your are just overloading them (for later benefit).

Get someone to watch your technique (or record it) just to make sure. BTW, your pain in teh lats will go after a lot of 20 SPM work.

Good luck
RichardT

[zubeldia]

Hi Paul.

It's quite typical for a new Rower, when trying lower stroke rates, to slow down the work of their legs, leaving the upper body to do a lot of extra pulling at the finish to get the desired pace target.



Lowering the Rate is a matter of increasing the time for the recovery (expanding the ratio of the stroke cycle), still go after the Drive with the same enthusiasm that you would at the higher rates, the slower flywheel at the catch will resist your efforts just fine. You simply must control the recovery a bit more to keep the Rate/Pace in line with your target.


This way you are still using the legs for the majority of force generation, and can follow through naturally.

Since it sounds as if you are also around a boathouse, have someone with experience watch what you are doing and perhaps they can help out a bit more specifically.

This makes a lot of sense. I have to admit that I find it a little harder to engage my legs as much when I slow down the recovery - perhaps because I lose momentum? (does this make sense?)

I wonder if others have difficulty with drive-enthusiasm at this stroke rate! The more I do these pieces, though, the easier it becomes. I also wonder if it's more difficult for a small light person to pull at a slower rate? (I'm 5ft 5)/

Unfortunately I'm no where near a boathouse. I have to travel quite a distance to row on the water. I will endeavor to get down there soon, though.

Thanks for all of your help.
Z

[Bob S.]

Lowering the Rate is a matter of increasing the time for the recovery (expanding the ratio of the stroke cycle), still go after the Drive with the same enthusiasm that you would at the higher rates, the slower flywheel at the catch will resist your efforts just fine. You simply must control the recovery a bit more to keep the Rate/Pace in line with your target.

After sending many messages advising the same thing, i.e. hard drive/slow, controlled recovery, I suddenly find myself facing the opposite problem. Following Xeno's advice, I have considerably increased my stroke length. At the catch, by bringing my torso closer to my thighs and by getting my arms straight, instead of having a bit of bend in the elbows. And at the finish, by pulling in slightly higher to my chest to get a fuller range of motion with my lats. I did a full scale trial of this revision of technique today, starting with my usual 10' wakeup. A couple of hours later I did what was supposed to be a 30' UT2. I did a 10' warmup first and followed the UT2 piece with a 10' cool down.

The wakeup lived up to its name — waking me up to the fact that something was different was going. It is done with 2' each @ rates of 12/15/18/20/12. I used to try to cap it at exactly 1900m, but lately I have just let the pace float and get results ranging from 1900 to 2095m, usually around 1940m. Today, with a cord hanging from the monitor to mark where the handle should be at the catch, it was 2149m. I can’t say that it was that much more efficient, since I could feel that I had worked a lot harder than I usually do in this piece. The warmup, also 10’, was 2’ each at 12/15/18/20/22. The pace at each rate was much faster than normal.

In the main workout piece, the goal was a rate of 20spm and a pace of 2:23.3. I have no problem keeping the rate at 20spm, but there was no way I could slow the pace down to 2:23.3. The 6’ splits were 2:16.9, 2:16.1, 2:19.9, 2:18.9, and 2:20.8 — average 2:18.5 (the fast end of the UT1 band for me). Early in the piece, the monitor showed a projected distance that would have been a seasonal PB for me. Also my heartbeat was much too high for a UT2 or even a UT1. Average 146. The monitor HR was inoperative about half the time, but the 6’ readings were 150/148/145/150/139. In the early stages, when it was off for a while, I checked the wrist receiver and it was holding at 161 for a longer time than I like to think about. As a point of reference, my “max” is 138. My 2k trials are usually in the mid 150s.

The problem I have is trying to change my rhythm. To increase the stroke length at the same rate and pace, I have to pull lightly and take a long time for the drive, This means speeding up the recovery in order to maintain the same rate. I was finally slowing the pace to about 2:23, but I really felt like I was rushing the recovery. I thought of lowering the drag factor to see if this would help, but I didn’t want to stop in the middle of the piece to do that. Perhaps I will try that in the next workout — or even in tomorrow’s daily wakeup.

My cool down was 10’ at a steady 12spm. This, too, was at a faster pace than usual, but I was learning to control it a bit better. Even so, the rhythm didn’t feel right. Instead of a 1 second drive and a 4 second recovery, it was just enough off from that to feel uncomfortable.

Bob S.