Question for PaulS

[seat5]

Paul,
I have been trying to figure something out and finally just decided to ask you as you probably know the answer and nothing I was coming up with made any sense.

If one rows at 2:00/500 at 25 spm, that's 10MPS. Now, if you do it with a metrenome set at 75, and make sure your drive takes exactly one beat out of every three, your drive:recovery ratio is 1:2.

What I am trying to figure out, is, is there a way to judge how hard you actually pushing on the drive? I mean: you can't go by what the pace says, because that takes into account the rate. I was wondering if there was a way to make sure you kept pushing just as hard when you upped the rate. Say you then set the metrenome at 78 or 81, and push as hard as you were before, and keep the drive:recovery ratio 1:2. Of course the pace is then faster, but how do you make sure it's not just because you sped up the rate? Is the watts reading effected by the rate, like the pace is?

I think if you can keep the drive just as strong, but speed up the rate, it's better than just speeding up the rate. And eventually I know I won't be able to keep the 1:2 ratio. But does it make sense to try to hang onto that ratio as the rate speeds up?

Right now I'm doing (supposedly UT1) workouts at anywhere from 2:05ish to 2:06ish at 22 spm at 1:2. That's got to be a lot less than 10mps, but with the stroke ratio, it doesn't feel like a wimpy stroke, it feels like hard work (I'm not using a HR monitor so it's probably really closer to AT than UT1 by the very inaccurate way of judging by "feel".)

Also, is there a MPS calculator link anywhere that you know of?

I hope you see this and don't mind if you are explaining something you've already explained.

[Sitwronge]

PAUL S ID LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWER FOR THIS TOO SO PLEASE LET US KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION

THANK YOU

[jamesg]

At 2:05, 125-6s/500, 22, you're pulling 179W, 8W-minutes/stroke and 11 m/stroke.

To hold work/stroke constant, all you have to do is multiply the rating by the work/stroke level you want to use (work level x rating = power), and then do it. It's simple if you use the W readout.

So if 2:05 @ 22 or 8W' suits you:
16 * 8 = 128W
18 * 8 = 144W
20 * 8 = 160W
22 * 8 = 178W
24 * 8 = 192 and so on.

Work/stroke is the product of average handle force x stroke length, in appropriate units, so it's best to keep the stroke long, as you know. And of course we are supposed to pull harder to increase speed, not just increase the rating: the work/stroke will increase somewhat with rating, to move the boat as far as possible. So your magic number 8 is not fixed anyway.

I think most of us fall between constant work and constant metres/stroke.

Alternatively, you can use the pace tables in the W and IA plans, they're both based on constant work/stroke, with some work increase at the higher ratings.

The point of using Watts is that a) it's more accurate than pace, due the cube law and b) you can do the sums on the fly without consulting tables or coaches.

Of course we can always do the more obvious thing and just pull *@* hard at every stroke, keeping the length. Afloat, we don't have any other choice.

[GeorgeD]

Carla I have a lot of time for James, John I dont know why you persist with the Sitwronge thing is just makes you look silly, I would suggest you PM Paul it would save you a lot of grief.

George

[PaulS]

Paul,
I have been trying to figure something out and finally just decided to ask you as you probably know the answer and nothing I was coming up with made any sense.

If one rows at 2:00/500 at 25 spm, that's 10MPS. Now, if you do it with a metrenome set at 75, and make sure your drive takes exactly one beat out of every three, your drive:recovery ratio is 1:2.

What I am trying to figure out, is, is there a way to judge how hard you actually pushing on the drive? I mean: you can't go by what the pace says, because that takes into account the rate. I was wondering if there was a way to make sure you kept pushing just as hard when you upped the rate. Say you then set the metrenome at 78 or 81, and push as hard as you were before, and keep the drive:recovery ratio 1:2. Of course the pace is then faster, but how do you make sure it's not just because you sped up the rate? Is the watts reading effected by the rate, like the pace is?

I think if you can keep the drive just as strong, but speed up the rate, it's better than just speeding up the rate. And eventually I know I won't be able to keep the 1:2 ratio. But does it make sense to try to hang onto that ratio as the rate speeds up?

Right now I'm doing (supposedly UT1) workouts at anywhere from 2:05ish to 2:06ish at 22 spm at 1:2. That's got to be a lot less than 10mps, but with the stroke ratio, it doesn't feel like a wimpy stroke, it feels like hard work (I'm not using a HR monitor so it's probably really closer to AT than UT1 by the very inaccurate way of judging by "feel".)

Also, is there a MPS calculator link anywhere that you know of?

I hope you see this and don't mind if you are explaining something you've already explained.

Hi Carla,

As Jamesg points out, your lower rate increased the DPS rather than decreasing it, it also would expand the ratio. It is very tough to percieve exact lengths of a drive or recovery with the use of a metronome for a 1:2 ratio. ErgMonitor will put this all right on the computer display for you if you have a computer by the Erg of course, and it would also display your force profile so that you could see what happens when you keep the same drive and change rates.

Email me and I will send over a Calculator that I wrote (Runs on Windows OS, so if you are using a Mac it won't work, though I think there are some online calculators for that, or we can come up with spreadsheet formulas easy enough too.)

The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).

Think of the extremes, you could try a 2:00 at R10, R20, R30. The R10 would take one heck of a drive and a very high ratio, the R30 would be a much easier drive and lower ratio, the R20 inbetween.

In the end, SPI (Avg Watts/Rate) is a good way to see if you are increasing your workload, but that must also be tied to something like DPS to be meaningful, otherwise you can simply game the numbers.

Hope that helps, I probably missed some of what you wanted, just let me know. There were good discussions of this onthe Old Forum but that seems to get recycled every once in a while.

[hkp2ksk]

get the Ergmonitor!! www.ps-sport.net

tony

[Sitwronge]

PAUL S PLEASE HELP CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT DRUGS YOU ARE TAKING

THEN MAYBE WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP

P.S. HOW MANY DOUGIE BISCUITS HAVE YOU EATEN TODAY

[hjs]

what a gift that ignore button

[michaelb]

What I am trying to figure out, is, is there a way to judge how hard you actually pushing on the drive? I mean: you can't go by what the pace says, because that takes into account the rate. I was wondering if there was a way to make sure you kept pushing just as hard when you upped the rate.

I am not quiet sure if I understand your question. It seems to me that the answer is the main reason/justification for using 10mps as the foundation for all rowing when training. If you stick with 10 mps, when you up the rate, and stay at 10mps, you will be pushing harder and the increase in pace will not be as a result of the increase in pace.

[Bob S.]

Right now I'm doing (supposedly UT1) workouts at anywhere from 2:05ish to 2:06ish at 22 spm at 1:2. That's got to be a lot less than 10mps, but with the stroke ratio, it doesn't feel like a wimpy stroke, it feels like hard work (I'm not using a HR monitor so it's probably really closer to AT than UT1 by the very inaccurate way of judging by "feel".)

?? Carla, I think that you had better recheck your math. 2:06 at 22 spm is 10.8 spm - not exactly "a lot less than 10mps."

500mx60"per'/126"/22strokes per' = 10.8m per stroke. At 2:05 it comes out to 10.9. Of course the rate has only two significant figures — it could be anything from 21.5 to 22.49, but even so you were definitely doing better than 10mps.

Bob S.

[seat5]

Thanks for the answers!

Bob: I couldn't remember what math to do. It seemed like it was less for some reason, but felt like it was more. (My math is like Winnie the Pooh's spelling...it's good math, but it wobbles.)

James: Thanks for the chart. I've never rowed with watts before!

[/quote]
The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).

I guess what I was trying to get at was, if you are pushing with a certain amount of force on count 1, and recovering on 2 and 3, and then continue to push with the same amount of force and the same drive length (cm) on count 1 and recover on just 2, (without changing the tempo of the beat), wouldn't you then have the same DPS, and be applying the same amount of force per stroke, but go faster? The total amount of force applied during the whole time you row would be more, of course. Or would the fact that you'd cut off the amount of "coasting" distance you get out of the flywheel on the recovery just make it inefficient?

By lower ratio, do you mean a longer drive time or a longer recovery time?

In the end, SPI (Avg Watts/Rate) is a good way to see if you are increasing your workload, but that must also be tied to something like DPS to be meaningful, otherwise you can simply game the numbers.

How do you do that? I'm missing something. Can you set the PM3 to tell you both watts and meters at the same time, so you can see the wattage and keep pulling on the 0's? (hmmm....bet you can't...but I bet Ergmonitor can! I almost had a computer for my erg but it turned out to be a junker...still haven't got that sorted out yet!)

This is confusing!

[PaulS]

Thanks for the answers!

Bob: I couldn't remember what math to do. It seemed like it was less for some reason, but felt like it was more. (My math is like Winnie the Pooh's spelling...it's good math, but it wobbles.)

James: Thanks for the chart. I've never rowed with watts before!

The one thing to note for sure is that if you fix the DPS (S10PS, 9MPS, 11MPS) the ratio for ALL paces being done will also be fixed (different for each DPS though). The ratio can be adjusted by using the Drag Factor (Lower DF = Higher Ratio, Higher DF = Lower Ratio), about 0.1 unit of ratio for each 10 units of DF (as long as drive length, cm, is maintained).

I guess what I was trying to get at was, if you are pushing with a certain amount of force on count 1, and recovering on 2 and 3, and then continue to push with the same amount of force and the same drive length (cm) on count 1 and recover on just 2, (without changing the tempo of the beat), wouldn't you then have the same DPS, and be applying the same amount of force per stroke, but go faster? The total amount of force applied during the whole time you row would be more, of course. Or would the fact that you'd cut off the amount of "coasting" distance you get out of the flywheel on the recovery just make it inefficient?

By lower ratio, do you mean a longer drive time or a longer recovery time?

No, Your DPS would change with the 1:1 ratio, in fact you should get the same Avg RPM for both the recovery and drive so the distance covered would be 2xDrive distance. The pace will be faster, but this will require more power output on your part because you simply must repeat your equal drive more often. (Like doing 30 push ups in a minute instead of 30 push ups in 2 minutes, same overall work, different power) The distance covered during the actual drive is fixed by the Drive length (cm) and the DF, with normal ratio we cover more actual distance during the recovery than on the drive, about 1.5 times the Drive distance, but it of course takes more time on the recovery since the flywheel is slowing.

Lower Ratio means that the Recovery time is getting closer to the Drive Time (allowing that the recovery time is always longer than drive time). I'm going to get in trouble with Bob S on this, but a ratio of "3" means the recovery is 3 times as long as the drive, 2 is twice as long, 1 is equal, 0.5 is a really rushed recovery.

In the end, SPI (Avg Watts/Rate) is a good way to see if you are increasing your workload, but that must also be tied to something like DPS to be meaningful, otherwise you can simply game the numbers.

How do you do that? I'm missing something. Can you set the PM3 to tell you both watts and meters at the same time, so you can see the wattage and keep pulling on the 0's? (hmmm....bet you can't...but I bet Ergmonitor can! I almost had a computer for my erg but it turned out to be a junker...still haven't got that sorted out yet!)

This is confusing!

It's not that you set up the PM3 to do it, it doesn't give you a Stroke rate resolution to be meaningful anyway as it only works in whole numbers.

Just decide on a Pace (2:05) and a Distance (5000m) then proceed to do the piece in exactly 500 strokes, with as many 2:05's being displayed as possible once the Avg Pace displayed has reached 2:05.0. Actually I like to get 0.1 faster than target for the Avg Pace and "ride the edge", so as to not be suprised with hitting 2:05.1 just as the last stroke is taken. 2:04.9 will show you 2:05.0 if you slow down and then you can bump it up a bit. A displayed 2:05 is really anywhere from 2:04.5 to 2:05.4, and with practice you will be able to distinguish if you are on the "fast" or "slow" side of the displayed pace.

As long as you do steady state pieces, evaluating by SPI is easy, but again limited by the SR whole numbers.

For example, you go for a 6k PB and get 25:00.0 R27 (#1), and want to compare with a previous 6k PB of 25:06.0 R26 (#2). One is definitely faster but it also took more strokes.
#1 675 Strokes, SPI = 6.637
#2 653 Strokes, SPI = 6.810

So, aside from it being a little bit faster, what improved? I'd suggest, not much. Now this could be a problem with the SR resolution, so what if the SR's were really 26.5 and 26.4 which would display the 27 and 26 respectively.

#1 663 Strokes, SPI = 6.762
#2 663 Strokes, SPI = 6.707

Clearly, #1 is showing an improved ability to produce a more powerful drive in the same quantity as previously done.

Yes, ErgMonitor shows the SPI for each stroke, and has SR resolution to 1 decimal place.

[Sitwronge]

PAUL S THOSE BIG WORDS ARE HARD TO READ

WILL YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DRUGS AND HOW MANY STROKES???????

THANK YOU!!!!

I AM WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER

[PaulS]

PAUL S THOSE BIG WORDS ARE HARD TO READ

WILL YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT DRUGS AND HOW MANY STROKES???????

THANK YOU!!!!

I AM WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER

Sorry John, I didn't realize you had gone completely over the edge. I know the big words are tough to read and understand, so it's best that you just go back to eating our of your dogs bowl, and chasing the neighborhood cats. Just don't actually catch the cats, because they will scratch you.

Bub-bye bow-wow.

[Sitwronge]

PAUL S THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE ABOUT YOUR TRAINING TECHNIQUES

HOW MUCH DOG FOOD DO YOU EAT AND HOW OFTEN???

I AM WRITING THIS DOWN TO MAKE SURE I REMEMBER YOUR EXCELLENT TRAINING METHODS!!

THANK YOU!!!!

P.S. BOW WOW WE SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE!!