Slides, strapless erging, and force curve questions

[packrat8]

Greetings everyone,
I've been using a concept 2 model D for about 2 months and have also read alot of posts on this forum. I'm not planning on competing, either on the water or on the erg, I'm just erging for the fitness, cardio and strength/endurance benefits. However I want to develop as good technique as I can, as I know that to get fitter and stronger I have to keep erging faster and longer over time, and having good technique can only help me accomplish this in the most efficient way as well as avoid injury. I already try to use basic good technique as described here and elsewhere, first driving with the legs, then when the legs are almost straight swinging the upper body back slightly then pulling the handle into my abdomen. So I've read here that strapless rowing helps develop better technique and helps you apply more energy into spinning the flywheel thus going faster while wasting less energy. I've tried it a few times and each time my body wants to fly off the back of the machine, which I know is because I was using the footstraps before to stop my backward momentum and wasting energy I could use to move the flywheel. I've read here that you have to use the handle to slow down your body's momentum to avoid this, however I was wondering if strapless erging on slides would help with this also, since you are pushing the machine away from you with your legs instead of pushing your body away from the erg, shouldn't you avoid this effect of your body flying off the machine and shouldn't you be able to channel your energy into the flywheel better? Also I've read using slides causes the legs to work harder,(I try to start the catch with a hard push of my legs but I really don't feel my legs working all that much) wouldn't this also help you create a better force curve? My force curve when erging tends to take this shape which I know is wrong, not like this which is how it should be shaped, so could using slides help with this as well? If using slides does help with technique like I'm thinking they might, then probably alot of people having technique problems would be better off erging with slides than without, not to mention I've read here they help place less stress on the back thus reducing risk of injury, another positive. However I may be wrong, so I'm looking for replies and input from you experienced ergers/rowers on this board on whether anything I posted is wrong or could be right. Sorry for the long post and if this has already been covered in another post please let me know. Thanks for any help.
Jason

[Andy99]

good questions. Being new to rowing myself i dont have any answers for you but i hope some one does. I would love to read them.

[Hal Morgan]

I printed your post and carried it my pocket and read it over at break. I think the path you are on is the right path. I see my self on the same road. I have just now entered the after a long pause due to a work interuption. I wondered if I would ever regain top form. I used the graph today while I rowed my twenty minutes an to my surprise I was able to get several pulls that looked like the curve on the right. I am also hoping that Pauls from Washington replies his personal program has interested me for awhile now.

[michaelb]

I have never used slides, but I would guess that they would be fun and would do some of what you want (at least it would be easier at the catch, since the C2 is moving, not you). So if you have the money and the room, slides could be a good idea.

Otherwise, I also think you are on the right track. I am a big believer in rowing strapless for training, and my experience was that it takes time (maybe a long time) to develop the balance to feel like you can finish strong and not fall off. Actually, when I get tired or lazy I still have to work to keep my feet down.

I rowed with the force curve for about the first year I had the PM3. I think I had the curve looking pretty good. Then I sent a video of my rowing to PaulS, and he had all sorts of suggestions and changes to my stroke. I think it is possible to cheat the force curve, and so instead of really generating the early peak force with my legs, I was pulling with my arms too soon. I stopped using the force curve, and am still working on that as well as several other things (now more than 9 months later). So while the force curve is interesting, it will not ensure good technique, and I have for now stopped worrying about it too much (my curve when I am rowing long is much like the curve on the right; when I am pulling hard in a sprint I look more like the curve on the left).

You may find that get addicted and really do want to compete or keep track of your times or measure you are getting better. That is a good thing to all of us. PaulS's software Ergmonitor gives much more data/info and a much larger force curves. So if you are into that, you may want to demo that. If you want to really sort your stroke out, I would think Xeno's DVDs would be helpful, and his custom analysis of your stroke, great.

PaulS:
http://ps-sport.net/
Xeno:
http://www.gorow.com/index.html

[PaulS]

Hi Jason,

Strapless is considerably easier to do when on slides, as the momentum of the Erg moving away from you is dissipated quite easily regardless of being technically correct in your stroke. This is one of the reasons that some see what they think of as an increase in their own performance when trying slides, they are simply being punished less severly for technical errors that are holding them back when on the grounded Erg.

A nice way to use the slides and force curve is to compare the profiles when on slides and then off, if you see much difference at all, this represents technical flaws, even without the force profile if the 'feel' is very different from the slides to the grounded Erg it is an indicator of areas that could be improved with regard to technique.

As MichaelB suggests, it is possible to use our own unique technique and produce a reasonable force profile, but force is only part of the overall problem, the coordination of that force to produce the most power is something that can be seen using a tool like ErgMonitor, and is quite important for both OTW Rowers as well as Ergers.

The picture you have from the C2 site was likely taken with the early version of the PM3 firmware, which missed a lot of the early part of the drive, the later versions would have the force plot beginning about the first hash mark on the Y axis rather than the 2nd.

Over all, you really should look first to getting some direct technique feedback from someone who knows (a local rowing club perhaps), since the sooner you get that right the less bad habits are likely to creep in and be hard to break later. That will also make the activity more safe for you in the long run.

Welcome to the forum fun.

[johnlvs2run]

You can either row faster on the slides, or else not row at all and make excuses for what others are doing. Perhaps become a coach and interpret the graphs, though so far no one has improved with all that "technique", the best technique being to get off your butt, stop making excuses and start rowing.

[Yankeerunner]

You can either row faster on the slides, or else not row at all and make excuses for what others are doing. Perhaps become a coach and interpret the graphs, though so far no one has improved with all that "technique", the best technique being to get off your butt, stop making excuses and start rowing.

Here is a prime example of what I had pointed out in an earlier post. Your goal here seems to be to insult Paul Smith, and I think that most long time forumites recognize that. Unfortunately for the author of the thread, and newbies like him, they more than likely fail to understand your true target and wonder why you have provided worse than nothing to answer the original question.

You, who envision yourself to be so supportive and helpful to newcomers, have once again served only to confuse an issue in your attempt to be the anticoach.

[packrat8]

Thanks everyone for the replies so far, as far as Mr. Rupp I already knew he was referring to Paul Smith, as I've read the other threads and am aware of his "reputation" among the other members here, but I'll just leave it at that, it's none of my business, nothing personal to Mr. Rupp at all just wanted to point that out. Any other suggestions or advice is welcome.

[johnlvs2run]

the best technique being to get off your butt, stop making excuses and start rowing.

I have to agree with John Rupp on this.

[chgoss]

Here's the best advice anyone could give: buy one of these DVD's (I recommend #4)
http://www.gorow.com/indoor_rowing_DVD.htm

Best $23 you will ever spend, a picture (or DVD) is worth a thousand words.

[Sean Seamus]

Yankee Trader wrote :

You, * * * * have once again served only to confuse an issue in your attempt to be the anticoach.

thank you, Yankee Trader, for saying it so well

perhaps a simple movement, in which those so inclined, merely write the phrase

"Ignore J Rupp"

at the top of every post
and then stick to it - regardless of whatever troll sounds are heard -

such a movement would satisfy the troll's need to see its name in print
&
maybe, slowly draw the life force of discussion from its hollow being.

[johnlvs2run]

You can either row faster on the slides, or else not row at all and make excuses for what others are doing. Perhaps become a coach and interpret the graphs, though so far no one has improved with all that "technique", the best technique being to get off your butt, stop making excuses and start rowing.

This is very clear, not confusing at all.