Noob observations (C2 vs Skillrow)

[rdraheim]

Dear C2 forum members,

Thank you for having an excellent resource publicly accessible. Sadly, my workplace has a newly built gym with all TechnoGym equipment and I don't have access to a C2, but rather four SkillRow machines (and they all seems to be slightly different in terms of usage/maintenance). I'm surprised that they all fill up, there's a weekly leaderboard, and I've seen all kinds of antics on them in by 10-session rowing career.

Anyway, I'm here looking to confirm that I'm on the right path with a goal to enjoy rowing and become better.

Me: 48/M/6'1"/90kg. Relatively slim but after the birth of my two children, I am getting back into working out. I really enjoy running but I with by increased weight (last 10-mile race in 2019, I weighed 82kg) it's very hard on my knees. That's where rowing comes in.

Info so far:

1. I started by watching "pick" drills on DH rowing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQEP66O9bk (and I try to do this 2-3 days/week on the machine before some other rowing).
2. I have set the drag factor on the machine down to around 120 (third screen on the machine itself).
3. I'm rowing for 5k at 18-20 s/m and around 120 watts average (with a 2:20/split) and it's comfortable and I'm working on form/breathing.
4. I'm watching the power curve (SkillRow app on a phone above the screen) ... and with the info here: https://blog.rowsandall.com/2016/11/19/ ... rce-curve/ I'm trying to see where I can improve form. It looks like the trunk is weak as are the arms. When I row as per 3, the kgf is around 50-70kgf and the curve is wide and flat.
5. I'm looking at stroke length and I am around 150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm when I lean forward and rearward at the ends of the stroke.
6. I use my old Garmin Forerunner 45 as I measure walking distance (10km/day) and HR during cycling to work/schools (120-140 bpm) but it doesn't work so well with the rowing due to bending of the wrist. I seem to stay around 100-120. I need to find a clock at the end of the workout and check this manually as it seems too low. (RHR average varies from 55-60 if no alcohol is consumed, or around 10 bpm if I have a beer or two).

Equipment differences:

1. I can't really get on a C2 easily (no space at home and this gym is where my children swim and it's a 5 min walk from the office).
2. From my reading it seems the SkillRow produces similar values to the C2 in the rowing mode (essentially an ergometer as well, but the data feedback is less convenient and it's 4x the price). In the strength mode, there's some magnet stuff that I don't use (I simply look for a df of around 120 and use mode 4/10).

Advice from anyone:

1. Could someone recommend an inexpensive HR strap that will connect to the skill row, so I can get an accurate fitness baseline? I'll check the Garmin against a clock today when I'm in the gym.
2. I think I'll continue to row like I am (4-5 times a week at 5k meters (2:20 splits at 18-20 s/m while working on form) for another month or so until looking at the beginning Pete's plan (unless there is a better option). Is this the way forward to get ready for Pete's?

Overall goal is general fitness with something I enjoy, which is current the rowing.

Many thanks for an excellent resource and have a great sunny morning.

[H2O]

I am a satisfied user of a Moofit HR monitor (for 26 USD on Amamzon) on a C2. Since the connection protocols are all standard I assume it will work on the SkillRow too.

[rdraheim]

Hello again,

I just wanted to say that I sprang for a Decathlon HRM (£25 new BT/ANT+) that should connect with the SkillRow. Having said that, I was able to get a better reading with my Garmin FR45 by sliding it up my arm a little and get a better reading of my HR during the row today.

It seems that my HR stayed between 135 and 150 over the 5k this afternoon. If my RHR is 60 and my MHR is 190 (measure by watch at the end of a 5k Parkrun). Am I calculating this correctly, as in this at the upper end of UT1 as what I should shooting for to build some aerobic base?

Many thanks and have a nice afternoon,
Roger

[JaapvanE]

I am a satisfied user of a Moofit HR monitor (for 26 USD on Amamzon) on a C2. Since the connection protocols are all standard I assume it will work on the SkillRow too.

I wouldn't bet on it, at all. Most equipment slap on a bunch of logo's without any real support. I am also active on the EXR rowing group (lots of non-C2 machines there), and there are a lot of issues with non-C2 machines. The TechnoGym does claim to support ANT+ and Bluetooth. If given a choice, go for the ANT+ HR belts as there is a certification scheme behind it and it is much less problematic.

[JaapvanE]

Anyway, I'm here looking to confirm that I'm on the right path with a goal to enjoy rowing and become better.

Let me start by saying that by far this is the most important part.

From my reading it seems the SkillRow produces similar values to the C2 in the rowing mode (essentially an ergometer as well, but the data feedback is less convenient and it's 4x the price).

My experience is different. I'm developer of OpenRowingMonitor, and our goal is to help owners of non-C2 machines get decent metrics. My experience is that most machines get the balance of drag and flywheel inertia wrong (making it feel off) and often completely mess up the metrics. Even expensive brands (like NordicTrack) have shown that their metrics are bad.

In the strength mode, there's some magnet stuff that I don't use (I simply look for a df of around 120 and use mode 4/10).

Yeah, that is where things really go off the rails, and it shows TechnoGym has no clue what they are doing. A magnet provides a constant drag force. An air-braked flywheel provides a drag force that depends on the flywheel speed (and thus the drag force automatically reacts to your stroke). Mixing them is difficult, as it throws the drag calculation in total chaos as the flywheel behaviour doesn't fit a decent curve. I have developed the algorithms for OpenRowingMonitor that actually do these calculations, and these hybrid machines are just plain weird.

From a rowing perspective, it becomes weird as well, as the constant force causes you to have a hard catch, and then you pull through as the resistance doesn't adapt to my legs and back kicking in in the middle section. I owned a NordicTrack that was a hybrid, in the end I removed the magnet.

Overall goal is general fitness with something I enjoy, which is current the rowing.

That will always remain the most important bit, regardless of machine.

[p_b82]

I cannot comment on the pace comparisons to a c2 erg, but 120W = 2:22.9 on the C2.

My other thing i picked up is:

Stroke length: ...150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm...

with1.85 height you're getting ~90% your height on the longer ones- that says to me: you're very flexible or you're forcing it and using weak form.

There is no "perfect ratio" - and I've got a very short stroke length for my 1.92 height, 1.20-1.35 typically - a dodgy lower back and v tight Achilles/calves. (and I do almost all my rowing strapless)

In the same way there is no "perfect" stroke in terms of the shape of the curve and what % is generate by which muscle groups and if you are in perfect sequence or blending legs/back etc - although never pull with the arms while legs/back are still driving.

We're all individuals with our own bio-mechanical quirks.

But, if your strokelength is coming from over compressing (shins beyond vertical and rounding the back) at the catch and too large a layback, you open yourself up to higher risk of injury + potentially leaking power on top of that risk.

Setting yourself up with good form now will really help you as you progress - it's so easy to learn bad habits early that then take more work to correct later when you've got to re-train the muscle memory.

[gvcormac]

I've used TechnoGym in hotel gyms. All in all, I don't like the feel as much as C2, especially when you turn up the supplemental mag resistance. But it seems adequate to me, and the "pace" numbers seemed within the ballpark of what I'd expect on a C2 for the same RPE. I didn't try the HR, as I seldom bother to take a chest strap with me when I travel.

I did wonder what makes it worth four times the price of a C2. I suspect hotels don't pay anywhere what we do, and they do, to paraphrase Homer Simpson "look expensive."

At least you don't have to waste your time figuring out how to log in like you do with Peleton.

[rdraheim]

My experience is different. I'm developer of OpenRowingMonitor, and our goal is to help owners of non-C2 machines get decent metrics. My experience is that most machines get the balance of drag and flywheel inertia wrong (making it feel off) and often completely mess up the metrics. Even expensive brands (like NordicTrack) have shown that their metrics are bad.

Yeah, that is where things really go off the rails, and it shows TechnoGym has no clue what they are doing. A magnet provides a constant drag force. An air-braked flywheel provides a drag force that depends on the flywheel speed (and thus the drag force automatically reacts to your stroke). Mixing them is difficult, as it throws the drag calculation in total chaos as the flywheel behaviour doesn't fit a decent curve. I have developed the algorithms for OpenRowingMonitor that actually do these calculations, and these hybrid machines are just plain weird.

From a rowing perspective, it becomes weird as well, as the constant force causes you to have a hard catch, and then you pull through as the resistance doesn't adapt to my legs and back kicking in in the middle section. I owned a NordicTrack that was a hybrid, in the end I removed the magnet.

I just wanted to say thank you for responding. I took a quick look at the git and some commentary about the formulae employed by the software and discussions of linear regression posted here and I'm blown away. I have a feeling that enjoy rowing and the maths behind it quite a bit.

[rdraheim]

I cannot comment on the pace comparisons to a c2 erg, but 120W = 2:22.9 on the C2.

My other thing i picked up is:

Stroke length: ...150-155cm when lazy/tired and 160-165cm...

with1.85 height you're getting ~90% your height on the longer ones- that says to me: you're very flexible or you're forcing it and using weak form.

There is no "perfect ratio" - and I've got a very short stroke length for my 1.92 height, 1.20-1.35 typically - a dodgy lower back and v tight Achilles/calves. (and I do almost all my rowing strapless)

In the same way there is no "perfect" stroke in terms of the shape of the curve and what % is generate by which muscle groups and if you are in perfect sequence or blending legs/back etc - although never pull with the arms while legs/back are still driving.

We're all individuals with our own bio-mechanical quirks.

But, if your strokelength is coming from over compressing (shins beyond vertical and rounding the back) at the catch and too large a layback, you open yourself up to higher risk of injury + potentially leaking power on top of that risk.

Setting yourself up with good form now will really help you as you progress - it's so easy to learn bad habits early that then take more work to correct later when you've got to re-train the muscle memory.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and I must admit it is likely weak form, which I'll start to correct tomorrow. After watching a few videos, it's likely rolling the shoulders and too large of a layback.

I'll have to make a video.

Have a nice evening.

[Tsnor]

.. I think I'll continue to row like I am (4-5 times a week at 5k meters (2:20 splits at 18-20 s/m while working on form) for another month or so until looking at the beginning Pete's plan (unless there is a better option). Is this the way forward to get ready for Pete's?

Re: HR monitor. Good info above. If you use Garmin as your workout data aggregator then connect your new belt to the forerunner 45 over ANT+ and use your watch to record your workouts. That'll give you accurate info. Any belt that can claim ANT+ will connect to both your watch and the rower at the same time.

There are several mutually exclusive approaches to training. Maybe watch this TED talk and then decide if you want to continue 4-5 sessions/week at moderate to hard pace, or switch to 2-3 hard session and the remainder longer and slower before going to Pete Plan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I ALL of the training approaches work, so pick one that fits you. Your walking goal is excellent.

Your focus on technique is excellent. Aside: Technogym Skillrow costs 4 times more than C2 erg and "...is a premium rowing machine that offers a unique and realistic rowing experience, along with advanced features for both cardio and power training..." Sounds like the rower will be perfect for you. Don't hesitate to use this forum for rowing technique questions, etc.