How often do you go flat-out?

[Annisotropic]

I got to wk 17 of the BPP last year before life got in the way, I took a few months off, and I'm now back up to week 7 again.

I almost never go absolutely flat out; I'm always glad to finish a session and walk away, knowing that I could have done just a tiny bit more. The falling-off-the-erg-gasping-for-breath sessions are rare. So far, I'm still enjoying the process so this is working for me, but presumably the progress is less than it could be.

How often do the rest of you do a 100% session? Even if I was prepared to do them more often, does my age (62 F) mean that they should be infrequent anyhow? I'll never break any records, but I am proud of my times, eg. 2k/8.34.7/22spm; 5k/22.11.7/21spm.

[Ombrax]

I almost never do a 100% row, no matter the distance, but unless I'm feeling pretty bad or holding back for some other reason, (e.g. sore shoulder) I typically do push myself the last 500-1000 meters, gradually ramping up the pace with negative splits, then for the last 200 m give it all I have as I count down the final few strokes (usually 21 or 22).

[MPx]

There's flat out and there's hard. Flat out is only possible for seconds rather than minutes and I very rarely do that - maybe a handful of times a year to get a decent 100m and 1min score. Even a SB 500 needs a bit more nuance than flat out.

But if you're talking about how often do I do a hard session - which I might define as pacing a piece at or around my PB/SB level - then twice a week. I do various sprint pieces (eg 6x500 2r; 10x 1min 1r; 16x 250 90"r; et al) as hard as I can typically on a Tuesday and either long intervals (4x1500 5r; 3x2k 5r) or a current competition (CTC or Sub7 ITC) as hard as I can typically on Saturdays. The other days are Steady State or grey zone. Works for me...

...and don't let age hold you back - I have found it gets harder and harder to slow the decline, but in other respects there's no age barrier. One of my training partner's does more than me, faster than me, at 74 years old. And while my hard sessions are typically hard enough to elicit an uncontrolled scream at the end (one of the many reasons I don't erg in public!) I've never fallen off the erg, so maybe I don't go as hard as I think!

[H2O]

Defining "flat out" as including a desperate sprint at the end of a piece: I do this only in erg races, not even in time trials. Time trials are like 99.5% efforts.
I feel that a maximal sprint at the end is more harmful than useful.

[Dangerscouse]

If all things are equal, and I don't stop myself from doing what I should, it's probably once a week on the erg, as i really push myself once a week at hot dynamic pilates. It might not sound like much, but I rarely make it through the 45 mins without stopping, if only very briefly.

Very hard / hard is definitely worthwhile, even if it's not something to look forward to on occasions.

[Sakly]

As others said, flat-out is really not often on the plan and mostly not even on TTs.
But hard to very hard workouts would describe what I do mostly in the gym 3 times a week, so very few hard workouts on the rower left. Once a week at most, often only two hard efforts per month (CTC and team challenge).
Last three weeks taking part in ergenduranceseries to find out that one hard effort on the rower per week is a bit too much already.

[Annisotropic]

Thank you for the replies, it's good to hear how others typically train, and what is generally considered reasonable

[p_b82]

I only hit flat out on the short sprints ~60s effort if going to max wattage; but on a 500m I hit a strength limited flat out.

On almost anything else, it's cardio limits for me; I try to hit my "max on the day" when doing a TT, but sometimes even then I feel I've left something on the table at the end. I do TT's infrequently over the year - normally on a whim on a day I feel like it's a "good day".

I row 3x a week only, and so I do hard sessions each time depending on what I'm feeling like - there are few easy days when just getting on the erg is a win though.

[iain]

Terminology is not consistent as seen in above posts. I find 1 session at 99%+ per week is about average. "Falling Off the erg" is unnecessary (although I have done it), but it is quite common fopr me to take 2-3 mins of breathing hard before I feel up to moving from a slumped position on the erg! On all these 99%+ sessions I finish at what feels like a maximum sprint, but in reality at the end of longer intervals / a 5k+ time trial I rarely exceed 35SPM for more than a couple of strokes although more often than not I shorten the stroke as legs haven't the strength to maintain the pace.

As for what is required, I would say that these are only required in final 6 weeks or so of "peaking". But personally I no longer race so try and stay as fast as possible each month for CTCs and SBs. I would say that at least one session where you exceed threshold HR for 5min+ is helpful to maintain progression and have found my pace dropping a bit when I am not doing this at 60k+ per week. Maybe if I was doing 100k+ per week it wouldn't be required, but I have only done this with the faster sessions so have no data. WHile there are studies showing all things being equal doing more produces the most improvement, there are plenty that show that doing1-2 harder sessions a week leads to faster improvements in the medium (>2months) as well as the short (<6 weeks) term.

What I would say is that a program is only effective if maintained, so if you prefer only doing LSDs, only add the faster sessions while you are enjoying them or they may lead to you rowing less! Some people find fast sessions cause enough anxiety that they sleep less well the night before, not sure, mbut they may lose most of the benefit in the poor sleep!

[Dangerscouse]

WHile there are studies showing all things being equal doing more produces the most improvement, there are plenty that show that doing1-2 harder sessions a week leads to faster improvements in the medium (>2months) as well as the short (<6 weeks) term.

As usual, I do agree with you, but let's not forget the curveball that is everyone's personal recovery, even though it's covered to some extent with your caveat of all things being equal.

Avoiding hard sessions because you're physically not capable is one thing, but mentally not comfortable is a different matter, and I do find that I need to fight through some intransigence to make me remember that it is horrible, but also enjoyable and beneficial

[iain]

WHile there are studies showing all things being equal doing more produces the most improvement, there are plenty that show that doing1-2 harder sessions a week leads to faster improvements in the medium (>2months) as well as the short (<6 weeks) term.

As usual, I do agree with you, but let's not forget the curveball that is everyone's personal recovery, even though it's covered to some extent with your caveat of all things being equal.

Avoiding hard sessions because you're physically not capable is one thing, but mentally not comfortable is a different matter, and I do find that I need to fight through some intransigence to make me remember that it is horrible, but also enjoyable and beneficial

Good point Stu. Most of the studies I was referring to were comparing equal time or distance where the total was a long way short of over training, so arguably they would be less for the all LSD than equivalent training (as a like for like comparison would replace a hard session with a longer than usual LSD).

I am unclear about what a physical impediment would be (over trained perhaps?) I always define the "right" intensity for an LSD to be "that intensity which you can fully recover from before your next hard session". So I would say that the issue would be with the LSD NOT the hard session! (Agreed we can and do get it wrong or life gets in the way, but for a program over time this should not change the program).

That said I appreciate I am being simplistic. When training to build a base / for longer distances, I do try and fit in (ostensibly LSD) sessions that are too long to be done at a reasonable pace that meets this criteria, so Sunday I did a slow FM as a start to getting prepared for Marathon Fortnight at the beginning of next month, I did this slower than usual UT2 pace, but was still feeling the effects 36 hours later. Personally I have enough forced periods without training (in this case 2 days) to usually fit these in before enforced gaps, but for someone training 6 times a week, these would be problematic to program.

Also the studies that have shown that pyramidal training (eg 1 very hard and 2 moderately hard per week of 8+ sessions) has a non-significant difference in fitness effect to 2 very hard sessions with a similar total volume, in my mind makes me wonder whether doing some hard sessions slightly slower might not impact the effect as much as the earlier studies (concluding that training too intensely to be able to produce fastest times on the hardest sessions reduces training effect) might suggest. I am aware of some coaches setting tough training regimes with only 1 all out session a fortnight!

[drluvguru]

I usually save flat-out stuff for short stuff: 100m, 1min max watt stuff, maybe once every couple months. For 5k+ distances? Nah. I’ll go hard, but not eyes-bleeding hard. Once a week at most for tough sessions, the rest is just steady or mildly unpleasant. Keeps the fire burning without frying the system.

[Annisotropic]

I’ll go hard, but not eyes-bleeding hard.
Once a week at most for tough sessions,
the rest is just... mildly unpleasant.

This is perfect!

Erging summed up in a nutshell!

[iain]

I’ll go hard, but not eyes-bleeding hard.
Once a week at most for tough sessions,
the rest is just... mildly unpleasant.

This is perfect!

Erging summed up in a nutshell!

The "Mildly Unpleasant"? Are you sure you are doing the right sport if that is how you feel? I do have a love/hate relationship with my metal mistress, but generally "enjoy" the challenges she poses when they are underway. It is the anticipation that I dislike and the disappointment when I succumb to the H/D Daemons!

[KeithT]

Been interesting reading this and seeing responses. I know how many train in general but this captured it pretty well. I am like many in that I don't do all out TTs too often but push "very hard" once a week - this can vary from short intervals to longer rows. If doing intervals I will push to where I am gasping and hurting pretty bad - is it 100%....maybe not but would be close.