Am I Crazy?

[milansanremo]

I know basically, slightly more than zilch about what I'm doing.
After 3 months of learning how to row without falling off the machine, I have started following a 2k training program.
Anyway, I seem to have made an accidental very positive discovery. I have done all training thus far concentrating on increasing drive length staying between 20-24 s/m.
I have found that reducing the drive length from an average of 1.24 to 1.05 and increasing the s/m to 35 or higher makes 1:55 pace become 1:45 pace with much less stress. Breathing is remarkably easier and sustainability has significantly increased. Is this because I'm a novice at this?
I am using the values from the program I'm following based on a 7:36 2k. (UT2,UT1,AT,TR,AN). I think I need to get more aggressive on the time I'm using because I can't go as slow as UT1 ever. AT pace is not hard either. I haven't done the harder paced workouts yet.
I would really like to hear some insight regarding the positive change by increasing s/m and reducing drive length.
Now, I can certainly understand as I get more efficient at this by reverting back to a longer drive length and maintaining a higher s/m (I might just be able to not fall off...lol)

Thanks again for all your enormous help
John

[Dangerscouse]

I would really like to hear some insight regarding the positive change by increasing s/m and reducing drive length.

It looks like your elite fitness is overpowering your upper body strength, as a rough guide is that higher stroke rates are better for fitter rowers and lower stroke rates are better for stronger rowers.

You'll need to attack the lower stroke rates in a really slow and incremental manner. If r35 is your sweet spot, lower it by one spm every 4 or 5 sessions and get accustomed to the difference before dropping down lower.

Do you know why you can't go slower than UT1? Is it a physical issue, or just a mental block? 1.24 stroke length is quite short, as I think that you're quite tall, aren't you? You've got very strong legs, so the push shouldn't be an issue, so you should look at the finish of the stroke. Are you leaning back enough?

As an aside, I watched the Milan San Remo race for the first time this year, and it was an amazing race. I expected Poj to dominate.

[milansanremo]

I would really like to hear some insight regarding the positive change by increasing s/m and reducing drive length.

It looks like your elite fitness is overpowering your upper body strength, as a rough guide is that higher stroke rates are better for fitter rowers and lower stroke rates are better for stronger rowers.

You'll need to attack the lower stroke rates in a really slow and incremental manner. If r35 is your sweet spot, lower it by one spm every 4 or 5 sessions and get accustomed to the difference before dropping down lower.

Do you know why you can't go slower than UT1? Is it a physical issue, or just a mental block? 1.24 stroke length is quite short, as I think that you're quite tall, aren't you? You've got very strong legs, so the push shouldn't be an issue, so you should look at the finish of the stroke. Are you leaning back enough?

As an aside, I watched the Milan San Remo race for the first time this year, and it was an amazing race. I expected Poj to dominate.

I believe you are absolutely correct about the fitness overpowering the upper body strength. In retrospect, I'm really dumb not to have thought about this earlier. ( Forget about trying to go faster by using "what you don't have" "put high stress on your aerobic system and use what you already have".
As a side note ,Greg LeMond, Andy Hampsten, and myself were the first athletes that tested above 80 mL/kg/min (all at the same time, at the same training camp in Colorado Springs)
I tested in a medical setting at age 45 while still competing (cycling) a 78 VO2.
Going slower than the UT1 value for a 7:36 2k goes back to my time as a starting out endurance athlete. I have a difficult time exercising when I don't feel like there is a benefit. That has been a failure of mine for years (the inability to exercise slow) or even take any time off. Tomorrow I'll break 1mm on the training log from a Jan 13 start of (,never have rowed).
I desperately need to work with an expert on technique if I want to progress quicker (as you mentioned).

Thanks Again
John

[H2O]

Being able to maintain such a high stroke rate is a very valuable asset. I can't even do that for 1K. To get the most out of your rowing it is best, to combine this with low rate, higher powered rowing also. I would confine the high rate rowing to TR and AN workouts and time trials, and drop down in rate even for AT sessions already, definitely for UT1 and UT2. Lower rate rowing builds stroke power and makes it easier to focus on stroke mechanics or simply get into a pleasant flow. Not all workouts need to be grim. Then when it all comes together you can go the high stroke rate at slightly higher power and good mechanics and put your fitness to even better use.

[Dangerscouse]

Going slower than the UT1 value for a 7:36 2k goes back to my time as a starting out endurance athlete. I have a difficult time exercising when I don't feel like there is a benefit. That has been a failure of mine for years (the inability to exercise slow) or even take any time off. Tomorrow I'll break 1mm on the training log from a Jan 13 start of (,never have rowed).
I desperately need to work with an expert on technique if I want to progress quicker (as you mentioned).

Exercising slowly is generally a very good idea, quite how slow is debatable, but in your case it sounds like you're more in need of just maintenance of fitness, understanding technique and building strength in the stroke.

Not having time off, is an issue for the vast majority, but there are always outliers and I'd assume that former pro cyclists are definitely in that outlier group.

Technique is fairly easy to understand and if you post a video here (uploaded for YouTube) there's lots of people who can give comments. Or there are loads of C2 videos on YouTube, and I also recommend, Training Tall, Cam Buchan, and Aram Training for videos on technique.

Breaking that inner resistance to training at lower stroke rates and a higher wattage is probably the biggest target for you atm. That's fundamental to getting better imo, but your ego may take a battering as you'll go slower to start with, but you should adjust fairly quickly. Imagine it's like KOTM training. Horrible, but necessary.

[milansanremo]

Being able to maintain such a high stroke rate is a very valuable asset. I can't even do that for 1K. To get the most out of your rowing it is best, to combine this with low rate, higher powered rowing also. I would confine the high rate rowing to TR and AN workouts and time trials, and drop down in rate even for AT sessions already, definitely for UT1 and UT2. Lower rate rowing builds stroke power and makes it easier to focus on stroke mechanics or simply get into a pleasant flow. Not all workouts need to be grim. Then when it all comes together you can go the high stroke rate at slightly higher power and good mechanics and put your fitness to even better use.

Thank you.... what would be the optimal range for developing power and technique regarding stroke rate? 18-22?
I have done this trying to maximize force and I get the arm ,/back burn so that's verification that it's working.

[milansanremo]

Going slower than the UT1 value for a 7:36 2k goes back to my time as a starting out endurance athlete. I have a difficult time exercising when I don't feel like there is a benefit. That has been a failure of mine for years (the inability to exercise slow) or even take any time off. Tomorrow I'll break 1mm on the training log from a Jan 13 start of (,never have rowed).
I desperately need to work with an expert on technique if I want to progress quicker (as you mentioned).

Exercising slowly is generally a very good idea, quite how slow is debatable, but in your case it sounds like you're more in need of just maintenance of fitness, understanding technique and building strength in the stroke.

Not having time off, is an issue for the vast majority, but there are always outliers and I'd assume that former pro cyclists are definitely in that outlier group.

Technique is fairly easy to understand and if you post a video here (uploaded for YouTube) there's lots of people who can give comments. Or there are loads of C2 videos on YouTube, and I also recommend, Training Tall, Cam Buchan, and Aram Training for videos on technique.

Breaking that inner resistance to training at lower stroke rates and a higher wattage is probably the biggest target for you atm. That's fundamental to getting better imo, but your ego may take a battering as you'll go slower to start with, but you should adjust fairly quickly. Imagine it's like KOTM training. Horrible, but necessary.

Per my reply to your comrade.... I'm going to spend some time and concentrate more on slower rates and maximizing power.
Some progress in that area should translate into faster times reverting back towards a 35 s/m once I'm stronger. I forgot to ask "what is the high range of slower stroke rates"? 24-25?
I'll get my son to do a technique video... sounds very helpful in getting rid of bad habits now, which I'm sure there are many.
Thanks Again
John

[Dangerscouse]

Per my reply to your comrade.... I'm going to spend some time and concentrate more on slower rates and maximizing power.
Some progress in that area should translate into faster times reverting back towards a 35 s/m once I'm stronger. I forgot to ask "what is the high range of slower stroke rates"? 24-25?
I'll get my son to do a technique video... sounds very helpful in getting rid of bad habits now, which I'm sure there are many.

Good plan. Regarding stroke rates, like virtually everything in rowing, there are a variety of opinions. Some will advocate as low as r18, whereas others will suggest r24 is fine. Personally, I'm a big advocate of mastering all of them, as they all offer different kinds of benefits.

What your issue to start with at least will be is that r20 and less will feel far too slow, especially if you're not tuned into really pushing hard with each stroke, and you'll just ingrain a slower weaker stroke.

I'd suggest starting at r25, but combined with a fairly strong stroke, so you don't just go through the motions. You'll then get an idea of breathing sequence and the effort required. After about eight sessions, lower it down to r24 but maintain the same pace. Don't worry about distance, or needing to stop for rests, you might want to set it up as an intervals session with one min rests. Keep lowering down the stroke rate after at least five or six sessions, and you should then adjust each time and it won't be such a shock.

I always used to row at r28-30 for everything, so I've had a similar issue and found that this was invaluable as trying to just jump into r20 felt really weird.

I generally use stroke rates as a guide for anticipated pace too, obviously with some exceptions. As a rough guide, I use 1.5- 2 seconds per spm for either faster or slower. This isn't used for anything over r24 or for a TT for something similar, but I find it's useful for steady state.

Technique can be vital to get correct as you can leak power quite easily and for a seemingly simple exercise it's surprisingly technical. Admittedly, there's a fair amount of tolerance for some things, much like some cyclists will have a preferred style which can be deemed unorthodox.

[H2O]

Thank you.... what would be the optimal range for developing power and technique regarding stroke rate? 18-22?
I have done this trying to maximize force and I get the arm ,/back burn so that's verification that it's working.

I can only tell you what I do: 8 watt per stroke is relaxed but working, 9 watt per stroke definitely working, maintainable for 30 minutes
at stroke rates <= 21, 10 watt per stroke is getting pretty hard, maintainable for 10 minutes.
I usually set the drag factor a little higher to get higher watt per stroke at low rate rowing: DF 135 -140 low rate, DF 115-125 time trials, TR workouts.
I am in the same age group as you (67) but have been at it for a long time.

[milansanremo]

Thank you.... what would be the optimal range for developing power and technique regarding stroke rate? 18-22?
I have done this trying to maximize force and I get the arm ,/back burn so that's verification that it's working.

I can only tell you what I do: 8 watt per stroke is relaxed but working, 9 watt per stroke definitely working, maintainable for 30 minutes
at stroke rates <= 21, 10 watt per stroke is getting pretty hard, maintainable for 10 minutes.
I usually set the drag factor a little higher to get higher watt per stroke at low rate rowing: DF 135 -140 low rate, DF 115-125 time trials, TR workouts.
I am in the same age group as you (67) but have been at it for a long time.

You must be reading my mind? I was going to ask about exactly what you stated regarding drag factor above but forgot. In my newbie mind, I started thinking if what I'm trying to achieve with a slower stroke rate, wouldn't it be even better if I jacked up the drag factor for this exercise also?
My thoughts were to the 160+ area. I check drag factor before every workout and get as close to 125 as possible. However, My Erg is in the garage and a change in temperature or wind outside can have an effect of 2-3 of whatever the actual correct terminology is of the drag factor.

[milansanremo]

Per my reply to your comrade.... I'm going to spend some time and concentrate more on slower rates and maximizing power.
Some progress in that area should translate into faster times reverting back towards a 35 s/m once I'm stronger. I forgot to ask "what is the high range of slower stroke rates"? 24-25?
I'll get my son to do a technique video... sounds very helpful in getting rid of bad habits now, which I'm sure there are many.

Good plan. Regarding stroke rates, like virtually everything in rowing, there are a variety of opinions. Some will advocate as low as r18, whereas others will suggest r24 is fine. Personally, I'm a big advocate of mastering all of them, as they all offer different kinds of benefits.

What your issue to start with at least will be is that r20 and less will feel far too slow, especially if you're not tuned into really pushing hard with each stroke, and you'll just ingrain a slower weaker stroke.

I'd suggest starting at r25, but combined with a fairly strong stroke, so you don't just go through the motions. You'll then get an idea of breathing sequence and the effort required. After about eight sessions, lower it down to r24 but maintain the same pace. Don't worry about distance, or needing to stop for rests, you might want to set it up as an intervals session with one min rests. Keep lowering down the stroke rate after at least five or six sessions, and you should then adjust each time and it won't be such a shock.

I always used to row at r28-30 for everything, so I've had a similar issue and found that this was invaluable as trying to just jump into r20 felt really weird.

I generally use stroke rates as a guide for anticipated pace too, obviously with some exceptions. As a rough guide, I use 1.5- 2 seconds per spm for either faster or slower. This isn't used for anything over r24 or for a TT for something similar, but I find it's useful for steady state.

Technique can be vital to get correct as you can leak power quite easily and for a seemingly simple exercise it's surprisingly technical. Admittedly, there's a fair amount of tolerance for some things, much like some cyclists will have a preferred style which can be deemed unorthodox.

Thanks yet again for the invaluable information. I'm working on getting a video done so you can tell me the 100+ areas that I can try and improve in!

[p_b82]

I'm also going to throw out the "don't overthink it" comment.

I keep my DF the same on all rows, it fluctuates from 115 ->125 roughly - I've used it on 500m -> FM distances. I have a SPI that goes from 12.5Wmin -> 5.75Wmin this season depending on what I've been doing. I'm cardio limited, so coming from things from the other side to you as a fyi.

Training a strong stroke is all well and good - but it might not be where your own physiological strength lies - so while I don't think it's a bad thing to work on overall efficiency via technique improvements (I've done/ continue to do the same) you may well find that your optimal rate is much higher than "normally recommended" and that's not an issue.

You'll find your sweet-spot fairly quickly - mine's r23 for relaxed stuff; the cadence for the movement and the breath timings just all align there for me and it feels "just right".

[Sakly]

Probably it's helpful for maximum confusion, if I tell, what I've done so far
In the early days I used drag around 130-135 and already rated fairly low coming from a strength background. Steady rows were around 17-18 (and still are), stroke power around 9-9.5.
On shorter pieces I could rate fairly high as well (~18:20 5k at rate 33, 500 at 40) and bumped up the drag for sprint distances (160-220 for 500m or less).
I have no metrics to show, my stroke was strong, but slow. Over time I reduced the drag on my longer rows and tried to match our increase my stroke power to train the speed in stroke. Now I do long rows (long means HM or 2 hour) on drag ~100 to 110 and typically spi 11, so my speed in the stroke is much better. This translates very well into shorter stuff, so I don't need to increase drag so much to get pace down as before.

From my point of view a strong and fast stroke is key, because you can only increase rate and drag so much until you stall.
Increasing stroke power and/or speed on the same rate will give you improvements and better results.
If you're working below your limits on both ends, surely both can be improved. You need to work on both ends, but prioritize the one you're not good at to level your performance.