Can I still make 1:59 30r20 in 6 months? How to push to my limit and keep going?

[PleaseLockIn]

Back some time ago I had failed a 2:05 r20 5k (got to 4325m) although managed to squeak out a 2:03.9 r24 2k for 3 times, 4 min R. I had to get my HR to 199 to manage it.

I haven't improved a lot in this month—many guys on my pre-university rowing team are dropping 1 second in their 30r20 every other week. Meanwhile, I might barely be able to do a 2:07-2:08 30r20 if I push. Can I improve 10 seconds in my 30r20 in 6 months?

Should I modify the BPP to do more UT2 steady state considering my schedule? I think I'll have to keep my SS down to be able to push harder in intervals—perhaps 98% or 99% effort. But in a very good day I may barely be able to hold my HR under 160 for short SS at 2:26 to 2:27, which is pretty slow, even for my times.

But how do I overcome the central limiter and push harder, especially in my 1x week test (maybe every other week to each week) and intervals? When I got to 199 HR in my 3*2k 4R I had to force myself not to slow down.

[Sakly]

For a proper 30r20 you need to build a strong stroke. You won't get a strong stroke doing lots of steady state at 2:20-30s. HR is not of interest for building a strong stroke, so I would put off the HRM and focus on training goals aka getting a stronger stroke.
If you really want to achieve this in short time, you need to prioritize your erg work. Do longer intervals at r20 with about 200W - your target. Choose interval length and rest matching your current ability. Extend them over time, shorten rest over time. From time to time add some sessions with even stronger strokes, but shorter duration.
Probably add some more specific strength training, (straight legs) deadlifts, pulling motions like barbell rows/pendley rows.

[MPx]

No comment on much of this....but I'd strongly suggest don't bother about your HR in TTs. HR can be useful for various types of training plans, but is generally a useless and unhelpful distraction during any TT with the exception that it might potentially identify your max which might be a useful number to know. Your HR is what it is. Your max could be any number. I regularly went over 200 for TTs in my 40s - you're not even 20. You already know not to max out every session - that wouldn't be training - but once or even twice a week is no problem at all.

[Tsnor]

Can you post (or point to) your training for the last 10-20 days?

Your currently are "barely be able to do a 2:07-2:08 30r20". What split could you pull for 1 minute at r20, i.e. are you power limited or do you fade over 30 minutes?

How do you feel about your technique? Rate limited each stroke has to count. Poor sequencing hurts single stroke power and long duration efficiency. Ask your coach for 2 things to improve on your stroke.

Are you using a coaches workout plan (if so you need to stick with your coaches workouts, or work some modifications with them) or are you on your own with BPP (which is a good plan but can be modified).

6 month target you need to focus on aerobic base which does not grow quickly and responds well to long durations and progressive overload. Short term results come from hard "vo2max" type workouts, which over 6 weeks respond well to overloading. As you can see from your post different people respond differently to the same workouts.

[Dangerscouse]

My only other comment is that you need to train your brain too. If you don't think you're capable, you won't be.

How mentally resilient are you? You seem to be very extrinsically focused & motivated, which is good, but it will only take you so far when you're not able to dig in and hold on when it feels like you can't.

[p_b82]

I'm not sure that any-one here can answer the "can you do X in Y time" other than you.

But I'm going to agree with what's been said, in order to be able to hold a 10Wmin stroke you have to train it - preferably being able to go up to 10.5 or 11 so that you've got some reserve when it comes to the TT.
You also ideally need to be able to handle 200+5%W rate unlimited for 30mins i would have thought.

Or do 220W at r22 - again to condition the body so it is used to a higher workload, so the lower rate becomes "easier" - obviously you're not going to hold 220W for 30mins, but the longer you can hold it, the easier the 200Wr20 will become.

I also doubt you saw your max HR on the 3x2k 4min rest - 4 mins is really quite a long recovery time.

I would also say that you probably need to focus on the rowing - you've mentioned before you're doing a number of other sports - if your primary aim is now rowing, you might need adjust your schedule to allow for more rowing specific training.

[H2O]

I never did a 30r20 @2:00 but did enough low rate rowing to know that that was about what I was capable of, at the very best 1:59.
At that time my 2K was 6:52.

[iain]

But how do I overcome the central limiter and push harder, especially in my 1x week test (maybe every other week to each week) and intervals? When I got to 199 HR in my 3*2k 4R I had to force myself not to slow down.

There is a reason that its called the "Central Limiter". We all have limits and need to push them out through time. I have read that Anaerobic threshold (zone 3/4 cutoff) is where "most people want to stop". It is unusual not to have to push myself during every long interval, but that is what is required to push into Zone 4 and approach or enter zone 5! With time we learn that we can go on when our body is shouting at us not to. Our systems developed when leaving yourself gasping on the floor left you open to attack and predation so was very unwise while today the risks are no longer there! So we can safely push harder and with practice it gets easier.

6 months out you need to build a strong stroke and your base fitness. Personally I agree that you should try and prioritise your rowing but appreciate that this depends how meeting your target fits your wider goals. What I don't see evidence of in your rowing is that you are incorporating the higher work learnings into your regular rowing where the work per stroke remains fairly consistent. Its not just necessary to show you can do 10WMin (as in your sub 2' 500 R20), but that you do so with a stroke that is not exaggerated and incorporate the changes slowly into the rest of your rowing. Many good ideas above. But I am still unclear on your limits. Are you CV limited, strength limited or both? We can all pull strong strokes anaerobically, but you need to maintain 10W strokes. Personally I think that staying comfortably in UT2 is only going to have a significant impact in 6 months if done for an hour or more. 30 - 40 min rows need to be UT1 and I would suggest adding extra rest days is better than slowing the SS unduly.

To get to 10WMin you need a progressive plan that gets you there. Yes improvement is not linear, but without a plan you won't get there. You can either slowly increase the intervals at 10WMin or you can slowly increase the WMin to 10W, but stagnating is not an option. Who knows whether you can get there, but if you are serious you need to set yourself a program that increases to this by the necessary date and then try and stick to it. If you fail it should not be for want of trying! But it is down to you to do the work. Is this 3rd or more thread with the same question? You have a specific answer from Mike Caviston one of the most respected coaches and a proven athlete on how to get there. Happy to comment on how you intend to put this into practice, but we seem to be going round in circles.

[PleaseLockIn]

But how do I overcome the central limiter and push harder, especially in my 1x week test (maybe every other week to each week) and intervals? When I got to 199 HR in my 3*2k 4R I had to force myself not to slow down.

There is a reason that its called the "Central Limiter". We all have limits and need to push them out through time. I have read that Anaerobic threshold (zone 3/4 cutoff) is where "most people want to stop". It is unusual not to have to push myself during every long interval, but that is what is required to push into Zone 4 and approach or enter zone 5! With time we learn that we can go on when our body is shouting at us not to. Our systems developed when leaving yourself gasping on the floor left you open to attack and predation so was very unwise while today the risks are no longer there! So we can safely push harder and with practice it gets easier.

6 months out you need to build a strong stroke and your base fitness. Personally I agree that you should try and prioritise your rowing but appreciate that this depends how meeting your target fits your wider goals. What I don't see evidence of in your rowing is that you are incorporating the higher work learnings into your regular rowing where the work per stroke remains fairly consistent. Its not just necessary to show you can do 10WMin (as in your sub 2' 500 R20), but that you do so with a stroke that is not exaggerated and incorporate the changes slowly into the rest of your rowing. Many good ideas above. But I am still unclear on your limits. Are you CV limited, strength limited or both? We can all pull strong strokes anaerobically, but you need to maintain 10W strokes. Personally I think that staying comfortably in UT2 is only going to have a significant impact in 6 months if done for an hour or more. 30 - 40 min rows need to be UT1 and I would suggest adding extra rest days is better than slowing the SS unduly.

To get to 10WMin you need a progressive plan that gets you there. Yes improvement is not linear, but without a plan you won't get there. You can either slowly increase the intervals at 10WMin or you can slowly increase the WMin to 10W, but stagnating is not an option. Who knows whether you can get there, but if you are serious you need to set yourself a program that increases to this by the necessary date and then try and stick to it. If you fail it should not be for want of trying! But it is down to you to do the work. Is this 3rd or more thread with the same question? You have a specific answer from Mike Caviston one of the most respected coaches and a proven athlete on how to get there. Happy to comment on how you intend to put this into practice, but we seem to be going round in circles.

From my experience, my strength seems to give way earlier than my CV in r20 tests, though both are probably below that required for 1:59 30r20. I will prioritize my rowing, doing the bare minimum of other stuff. When I don't have a lot of time, I will allow the HR to drift to UT1 (around 175) for those rows and keep my stroke rate low.

I will slowly increase the WMin to 10W, and yes stagnating is not an option. Thus I will have 2x a week strength training, 1 interval day, 1 test day and then 2x SS (allow drifting to UT1). Depending on how I feel... I may combine SS with strength training (after strength training) and have an extra rest day.

I don't remember if this is the 3rd or more thread with a similar question... but fair. I will try to look back and see what he replied.

Perhaps for this week, for interval day I go every 2 minutes, 230m (last test) at r20 and continue upwards 2m a time until I fail? Or maybe pick something else? And for the other strength training - maybe I should do 3 sets of squats, 3 sets of bench and then focus more on my back as accessories (e.g. pullups)?

[reuben]

I will slowly increase the WMin to 10W, and yes stagnating is not an option. Thus I will have 2x a week strength training, 1 interval day, 1 test day and then 2x SS (allow drifting to UT1). Depending on how I feel... I may combine SS with strength training (after strength training) and have an extra rest day.

I don't remember if this is the 3rd or more thread with a similar question... but fair. I will try to look back and see what he replied.

Perhaps for this week, for interval day I go every 2 minutes, 230m (last test) at r20 and continue upwards 2m a time until I fail? Or maybe pick something else? And for the other strength training - maybe I should do 3 sets of squats, 3 sets of bench and then focus more on my back as accessories (e.g. pullups)?

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but you seem to bounce around like a pinball, constantly changing your plan and workouts.

You stated what you would do, said that you will look back at Mike's reply, then almost immediately threw up new options - "Perhaps for this week", "Or maybe pick something else?", "maybe I should", etc.

Few people can waver so much and succeed at anything - academic, professional, fitness, etc. Stop chasing rainbows. Pick a plan, stick with it. Tweak it if you need to, but stick with it. And yes, there's a difference between tweaking and pinballing. If you succeed, great. If you fail, you can learn from it. Time and energy spent bouncing around - mentally or physically - is not time and energy spent moving forward.

Again, I don't mean this to sound harsh. And you're quite free to ignore me.

Good luck.

[jamesg]

Do plenty of low rate 5ks.