Heart rate question

[MPx]

I get lost in the nomenclature sometimes.

SS is indeed steady state but rather than constant pace is the training we do in the aerobic zone- which tends to be the highest volume and is in contrast to anaerobic which is most often intense intervals or a TT ( time trial - or all out effort).

Pace as you know is time/500m. People often talk about a pace vs some known reference. In Iain’s example from the PetePlan he was saying that a (hard) 4x2k interval session might be attempted at your Steady State (aerobic) pace - (minus) 10 seconds. So if aerobic SS is @ 2:25pace then try the 4x2k at 2:15.

Intervals are written as 4x ( number of reps)
2k ( distance of each rep)
5r ( rest length in minutes or eg 90” would be 90 seconds)
If the r is written before the number then it’s the stroke rate - eg r20 = 20 strokes per minute.

HTH

[Dangerscouse]

I like to think it is a more telling metric. I have a Garmin Epix and with current Garmin HR straps it automatically measures breathing rate. My personal observation is that breathing gets tougher first, and HR typically follows. For me, when I absolutely want to stay in Zone 2, seeing breathing go above 1x strokerate is a good and timely indicator to let pace slip a bit and stay in zone. If I don't, I always end up in Zone 3.

One can debate the pro's and con's of Zone 2 training, but breathing rate is a pretty good indicator in my book. Combine it with HR behaviour around certain HR values and it is almost foolproof for identifying the Zone 2/3 transition for me.

Agreed. Just try rowing ten hard strokes whilst holding your breath. To say the least, it's an experience

As pilates is based, or at least should be based, on good quality diaphragm breathing I've learnt the difference but it is subtle and you can easily miss it.

Regular occasional deep breaths is demonstrably a good idea for me as I see a benefit in HR and mindset to a lesser extent

[reuben]

5r ( rest length in minutes or eg 90” would be 90 seconds)
If the r is written before the number then it’s the stroke rate - eg r20 = 20 strokes per minute.

Yeah, this is the part I Intuited. When I saw a number like 20 with an r I figured to 20 second and 20 minute rests were both unlikely, so it's probably stroke rate. On the other hand, when I saw a number like 4 next to an r I assumed that no one rows at 4 strokes per minute, and so it it's probably a 4 minute rest.

Thanks.

[iain]

I've read this a lot. But in 40 years of rowing I've never noticed that I coordinate breathing with stroke any more than, for example, with running stride. I do know that I am unable to swim (crawl) at any reasonable pace because the breathing synchronization doesn't suit me.

When I ponder a bit harder, it occurs to me that when I run I take one breath for every one or two or thee or four strides, and I mix it up as necessary to get enough oxygen. I probably do the same when rowing, but I don't really notice.

Most people instinctively coordinate the stroke. But I have found that when I go at 2k pace or above, I start rowing on a single breath per stroke (as needed for the high rating required to rapidly get to target pace). There is then a lag when I continue with this which is achievable as it takes time to gear up the aerobic system, so inevitably we are rowing predominantly anaerobically (I believe any myoglobin bound oxygen is negligible in humans relative to say a min hard rowing). However the aerobic system becomes an increasing source of energy. However our breathing rate is controlled from CO2 concentration NOT oxygen, so there is a lag before the increased breathing requirement. This then leads to a rapid increase in oxygen debt which leads to a rapid increase in breathing that makes me feel I need to breathe during the drive. If I give in to this my diaphragm cannot both breathe in and stabilise my core and I leak power.

This is less of an issue when rowing UT1 as the rate of increase in CO2 is slower and can be managed between strokes.

[iain]

SS is indeed steady state but rather than constant pace is the training we do in the aerobic zone- which tends to be the highest volume and is in contrast to anaerobic which is most often intense intervals or a TT ( time trial - or all out effort).

Thanks for the explanation, sorry to use jargon.

To be a pedant, I would say that there is a third category (you might be avoiding for simplicity, so if so, sorry for confusing things). genuine anaerobic exercise is typically 1 min or less. An all out mile or longer workout is predominantly aerobic. However we do use our aerobic muscle fibres to a significant extent, it is just that our system can metabolise the byproducts at or near the proportion produced, so we see elevated byproduct concentrations but they do level off. However this is pushing ourselves hard and can only be maintained for a limited period. Most of our intense training and racing occurs in this rather than the predominantly aerobic zone. Steady state is where these metabolites are maintained at a lower level and we can continue for an extended period.

[MPx]

...there is a third category

Useful clarification Iain, my apologies for simplifying to the point of misleading!

[Tsnor]

I've read this a lot. But in 40 years of rowing I've never noticed that I coordinate breathing with stroke any more than, ...

Most people instinctively coordinate the stroke. ...

My garmin watch infers breathing rate from hrv data. Then gives me a graph stacked with spm, HR and power.

At lower effort levels (70% max hr, 19-20 spm) my breathing rate is 1X my strokes-per-minute rate. Pushing harder it's exactly 2X. For longer hard pieces (90% max HR, 22 spm for 5K for example) there is a 1X start, a cross over region then a 2X region.

I never noticed it until I saw the graphs. Looks almost like stairs, the crossover is clearly defined, so are the 1x and 2x. I would not have guessed that it would correlate that well (until having seen it the answer is obvious.) HR does not have this stepped function at all -- it is a smooth curve from start to plateau.

[jamesg]

@jamesg - I have no idea what my W/kg is, but given my kg, it's surely quite low. What is "Watts/Rating"?

Watts/Rating is the mechanical Work in each stroke, and is the length of the stroke x the force we apply. Work in its Engineering sense is what we have to produce to move the flywheel. Or the shell when afloat.

If you pull a stroke 2/3 your height at average force half your weight, you'll get fit. Have a go. C2 supplies a thing called Ergdata that does the sums for us and shows a lot of numbers when connected to the PM on your machine. But doing it has to be learnt.

If your stroke is length 1.1m, pulled at average force 40kg (=400N, near enough) at rate 20 you'll produce:

1.1 x 400 x 20 / 60 = almost 150W. This power relates to Pace (=time per 500m) 2:12.

If unfit you won't be able to do that for more than a minute; so stop, rest, do another. Two or three minutes a day will be enough for the moment.

[mzielinskim]

My garmin watch infers breathing rate from hrv data. Then gives me a graph stacked with spm, HR and power

How do you get the data with the garmin ?

Do you use the ErgIq app? Because I think to see the breathing data is quite interesting .

Greetings
Michael

[Tsnor]

My garmin watch infers breathing rate from hrv data. Then gives me a graph stacked with spm, HR and power

How do you get the data with the garmin ?

Do you use the ErgIq app? Because I think to see the breathing data is quite interesting .

Greetings
Michael

I do not use the Erglq app (downloadable app that runs in some garmin watches) -- the garmin support needed is native to the 265 without an additional app.

I connect garmin 265 directly to my PM5 using ANT+ fe-c (the ant+ protocol that allows control of exercise machines). That gets me all the pm5 data into garmin. Garmin uses that to guess respiration, training impact and skin temp.

Ergdata will also run at the same time using BTLE, so C2 log gets it's data from ergdata. (I no longer replicate the C2 log to Garmin, each gets their own copy of the data.)

also, I use a polar H10 belt attached to the PM5 and the Garmin 265. H10 does a better job than Garmin optical for rowing. Data flow there is H10 --> garmin 265 to garmin ecosystem and H10 --> pm5 --> ergdata --> C2 log.