Variables

[niceguypaulie]

At 57, I'm back rowing having been on and off for 20+ years. I just managed 7.19/2k, and would love sub 7, something I only achieved once, aged 39.
I rowed 15 v fast strokes, settled down on about 21spm, and picked up for last 50, damper on 6.2.
My questions: Is it just trial and error with strokes and damper? Is it more likely I just need to stroke faster, rather than raise (or lower) damper. Would I be better off just chipping away at 2k time, or continually aiming to row further at 1.45 pace (ie, aim for 1k first, then 1.1k etc)?
With thanks

[MPx]

Welcome back! You'll quickly see that we don't really base anything on damper setting. The main reason being it will mean a different thing on every different machine depending on how clean it is. Instead we talk about drag factor - which is essentially how quickly the flywheel slows down and that is affected by where the damper lever is. The issue is that on a dirty unmaintained machine 1 might mean a DF of 60 and 10 might be DF 90, whereas on a new clean machine 1 might be DF 90 and 10 might be DF 220. So use the menu on the PM to display DF to find out what you're really doing.

The other thing is that the DF is purely about how the machine feels and different feels suit different folks. It doesn't matter what its set to, the machine measures the work you put into it. If you're more efficient with a heavy feeling boat and lumbering stroke then you need a higher DF, if you have a faster stroke and like the feel of a faster boat then set it lower. There is no universal this level of DF gives the best results. Most ergers, for most distances, incl the 2k, set the DF in the 110 to 140 range - be they beginners or Olympians.

You don't give us your stats - height/weight - or training/fitness. But even if you're a giant, 21 is a very low rate to use for a Time Trial. Scoring 7:19 at r21 suggests you should be able to get sub 7 at r30+ that most of us would use - shorter people often go at 35+. The snag will be you probably aren't fit enough to rate up to 30+ for 7 mins - but you may be if you've been active in other sports.

In terms of training I'd suggest you need to mix it up much more than just continually hitting the 2k. Lots of seat time/distance at modest pace will improve your aerobic capacity. Shorter intervals at faster than 2k pace will improve speed. You need 3 or 4 to 1 sessions aerobic vs anaerobic. Have a look at the PetePlan (Doesn't matter if its the beginner/2k/or5k plan - they all will provide examples of the sort of stuff you need to do).
https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/

[jamesg]

Your 250+W at say 22 average means you have a stroke worth at least 12 Watt-minutes.

So you pull hard, and drag factor (PM can show it) can be highish, say 130. Otherwise the pull gets too quick.

If then you want race 2k, a plan with some speed work for tapering will help. Complete training plans for any level can be found here:

http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

[Dangerscouse]

At 57, I'm back rowing having been on and off for 20+ years. I just managed 7.19/2k, and would love sub 7, something I only achieved once, aged 39.
I rowed 15 v fast strokes, settled down on about 21spm, and picked up for last 50, damper on 6.2.
My questions: Is it just trial and error with strokes and damper? Is it more likely I just need to stroke faster, rather than raise (or lower) damper. Would I be better off just chipping away at 2k time, or continually aiming to row further at 1.45 pace (ie, aim for 1k first, then 1.1k etc)?
With thanks

Was the ending average r21, or r21 for some of it? You mention the 'last 50', so I assume you mean the last 50 strokes?

Depending on the above, as details really do matter, it sounds like you're in far better shape now than at 39. If it was 7:19 @ r21, then in a very simple view, sub 7 should be achievable at circa r28+. Admittedly there's a huge amount of variables, but you're pulling circa 1:49 pace, so increasing the stroke rate will make a massive difference.

[niceguypaulie]

r21 for 1850 down to 500 (ish), but will pay more attention next time. Yes, last 50 strokes, I'd guess that was r26. I've long struggled to hit a higher stroke rate, I just get exhausted.

[niceguypaulie]

Drag rate 125, on 6.2 damper, so I'd say that feels about right for me
6ft/1.81cm, 85kg
Have been cycling for last 17 years - from multi-day events to racing at the velodrome. Legs good and strong, arms starting to get there now I'm at a gym, spare weight on the middle.
Did 1.33 for a 500m recently
"You need 3 or 4 to 1 sessions aerobic vs anaerobic." - good point, with thanks

[niceguypaulie]

r21 for 1850 down to 500 (ish), but will pay more attention next time. Yes, last 50 strokes, I'd guess that was r26. I've long struggled to hit a higher stroke rate, I just get exhausted.

[niceguypaulie]

Drag rate 125, on 6.2 damper, so I'd say that feels about right for me
6ft/1.81cm, 85kg
Have been cycling for last 17 years - from multi-day events to racing at the velodrome. Legs good and strong, arms starting to get there now I'm at a gym, spare weight on the middle.
Did 1.33 for a 500m recently
"You need 3 or 4 to 1 sessions aerobic vs anaerobic." - good point, with thanks

[Tsnor]

Drag rate 125, on 6.2 damper, so I'd say that feels about right for me
6ft/1.81cm, 85kg
Have been cycling for last 17 years - from multi-day events to racing at the velodrome. Legs good and strong, arms starting to get there now I'm at a gym, spare weight on the middle.
Did 1.33 for a 500m recently
"You need 3 or 4 to 1 sessions aerobic vs anaerobic." - good point, with thanks

Think you mainly need (rowing form) and (time in seat). MPx's point on 21 SPM is spot on.

Your cycling endurance training is very transferable to rowing. So is all the training philosophy stuff you've likely read as a cyclist. (pyramid training, polarized, etc all work the same and intermix with cycling).

Before you go for max 2Ks or anything 'short max effort' or 'low pull' be aware
(1) from cycling your legs are strong, but the stabilizer muscles in your back are not. Do work slowly and give them 6-8 weeks at lower per stroke output to balance out. Do ramp time in seat slowly for same reason. You can avoid elbow, back, wrist etc injuries this way.
(2) rowing form (at your leg strength level from racing at the velodrome) is critical for injury prevention. Full leg drive into a weak back shape repeated over 1000 strokes is bad. If you are not comfortable with your stroke please say so - many great videos on youtube. Worst thing you can do is be in a weak back position during leg drive. Most people at the gym have form that would hurt them if they could actually get any power behind their stroke.

Do you do any free weight training? It's become popular for cyclists to improve performance. The back shape for squats is exactly the strong back shape you need for leg drive during rowing. Its like a horizontal squat.

[niceguypaulie]

If you are not comfortable with your stroke please say so - many great videos on youtube. Worst thing you can do is be in a weak back position during leg drive.
> I did have a proper coach when I first started, so I'd like to think I have a pretty good technique. I did row 7.10 3.5 years ago, and have continued, just not at same regular rate

Do you do any free weight training?
> I started six months ago, although more on arms, and I'm not 100% on technique and knowledge

The back shape for squats is exactly the strong back shape you need for leg drive during rowing. It's like a horizontal squat.
> good tip, noted. with thanks

[Dangerscouse]

Drag rate 125, on 6.2 damper, so I'd say that feels about right for me
6ft/1.81cm, 85kg
Have been cycling for last 17 years - from multi-day events to racing at the velodrome. Legs good and strong, arms starting to get there now I'm at a gym, spare weight on the middle.
Did 1.33 for a 500m recently

I'm inclined to say that you're capable, if not now, really soon to achieve a sub 7, if you can pull a 1:33 500m.

The main issue, for me at least, is managing the fade and the mental demons with circa 700m to go, which it sounds like something you've been regularly addressing with your cycling.

IMHO, the core is the bit that I'd be most worried about for you if you've not trained it specifically. Cycling does help, but it's not directly targeting it and it does take a lot of punishment.

How did it feel when you increased to r26, and could you have carried on or increased to r27/28? I wonder if your breathing sequence is wrong, as I wouldn't have thought, purely on a superficial level, that you'd struggle with higher stroke rates with a solid cycling background.

[niceguypaulie]

I'm inclined to say that you're capable, if not now, really soon to achieve a sub 7, if you can pull a 1:33 500m.
> that's encouraging!

The main issue, for me at least, is managing the fade and the mental demons with circa 700m to go, which it sounds like something you've been regularly addressing with your cycling.
> I've often hit a mental low point at 1300m to go, the initial energy has gone, and have to hang on to the light at the end of the tunnel at 600 to go.
If I've aimed for a certain split, I've started say 1.52 goal, started at 1.47, drifted to say 1.53, and then might bring it back, or give up.

IMHO, the core is the bit that I'd be most worried about for you if you've not trained it specifically.
> noted. Doing some pilates now, and core is weak.

How did it feel when you increased to r26, and could you have carried on or increased to r27/28?
> I'm going to say not. Even if drag is less, getting to upper 20s on a 2k is tough. Fine on a 500m

I wonder if your breathing sequence is wrong
> breathing out on the pull, in on return, but also having to sneak in an extra small breath I and out before the catch.

[niceguypaulie]

Drag rate 125, on 6.2 damper, so I'd say that feels about right for me
6ft/1.81cm, 85kg
Have been cycling for last 17 years - from multi-day events to racing at the velodrome. Legs good and strong, arms starting to get there now I'm at a gym, spare weight on the middle.
Did 1.33 for a 500m recently

I'm inclined to say that you're capable, if not now, really soon to achieve a sub 7, if you can pull a 1:33 500m.
actually, just remembered, 1.35.7 - 1.32.5 was for 1 minute.

[MPx]

I've often hit a mental low point at 1300m to go, the initial energy has gone, and have to hang on to the light at the end of the tunnel at 600 to go.
If I've aimed for a certain split, I've started say 1.52 goal, started at 1.47, drifted to say 1.53, and then might bring it back, or give up.

Sounds like you need a better race plan - IMO a 6s drift is too much. You're going too hard, too early. While I advocate a fast start (many don't!), I'm talking about the first 4-6 strokes. By the end of the first 100m I like to be at goal pace -1 then steady at that to 500. Then the next 1k at goal pace +1. Then, despite really struggling at that stage, the light is getting brighter and I can usually muster some kind of improvement over the last 1-200m. That describes my best outings, but obvs isn't necessarily what happens IRL. I totally agree its all too easy to feel bad at 1/3rd in and just give up and paddle, but first 1/3rd at goal pace -5 is going to do that nearly every time.

[niceguypaulie]

I've often hit a mental low point at 1300m to go, the initial energy has gone, and have to hang on to the light at the end of the tunnel at 600 to go.
If I've aimed for a certain split, I've started say 1.52 goal, started at 1.47, drifted to say 1.53, and then might bring it back, or give up.

Sounds like you need a better race plan - IMO a 6s drift is too much. You're going too hard, too early.
> Worth trying - I was under the impression the first 15 strokes were 'free'. Even if they are psychologically tipping over desired split is hard to take, although there is a rush to be had from bringing it all back in the final stroke or two.