Is my stroke rate too low?

[cococococo]

Hey guys. I’m new to rowing and in week 4 of the beginner Pete plan. For the longer, slower workouts I end up around 15-17s/m. I find it helps me maintain a decent technique.

However on the concept2 site they say low is 18-22 and is not recommended for longer workout since it feels more like a strength workout.

Am I making it artificially hard with extra low s/m? I thought it’s more efficient. And I don’t want to go higher on the heart rate for longer rows since my current fitness is what it is.

Any thoughts appreciated!

I can’t attach a picture of my row today, file too large. Basically it’s 6500m, 2:47 split, 16s/m, 122 average heart rate, steadily increasing, peaking at 139 at the end.

[iain]

We need a bit more information. What is the highest HR you have seen and was this all out? Also what is your resting HR (first thing before you get up)? Finally, how many sessions are you doing each week and do you get DOMS following these or the interval rows?

As long as your rowing is not on a high DF and is continuous (ie no pauses) and smooth, I don't see a problem with these ratings. When I haven't rowed for a while I need to row at 16-17 SpM for a recovery row. That said, by week 4 you should be finding that you can manage a little higher than you could. Pete is no fan of long slow rows so they should be sufficient to raise a significant sweat while not leaving you out of breath. BUt if you have little aerobic fitness then it might take a few more weeks before you can increase this without compromising rows the next day (only relevant if there is a next day row). So in short would recommend trying to slowly increase this to 18SpM over the next few weeks if that is achievable.

[H2O]

We don't know anything about you: gender, age, size, fitness level, goals?
Generally always doing the same (stroke rate, pace) is not ideal.

[MPx]

Am I making it artificially hard with extra low s/m?

In a word....yes!

But as others have said we really need loads more background on you - gender, height, weight, fitness, and whatever you've done to estimate Max and Resting HR. Also what Drag Factor you use (not damper position, though that should be related).

If you're using a high DF at rate 15 then you are doing a strength session not really rowing and your stroke is likely to be suffering - certainly not efficient. The primary influences on the Pace/Watts that you see are how much effort goes into the handle and how often. If you do more strokes, then you don't need to put quite so much effort into each one to get the same pace. At the extremes, there will be a limit to the forces that you can apply (strength) and a limit to how often you can apply them (aerobic capacity). We all have a different sweet spot which feels the least effort for the best result. The slow (18-22) recommendation should be low enough to allow your aerobic fitness to improve over time - its very difficult to hone a continuous smooth stroke at lower rates and nearly always ends up with a pause in the stroke at some point. Any strength gains would enable each of those strokes to be a bit harder ... and a stronger storke applied more often is how you'll improve your scores over time.

In the absense of more info, I'd suggest simply trialling different approaches. Set your DF to say 120 (doesn't matter really - anywhere 100-140 will give you useful data). Then do a couple of minutes at 18, then 20, then 22,24,26,28,30, etc., crucially all at the same pace - say 2:40. Judge for yourself when it feels easiest... It will need a strong stroke at 18 which you may not be able to maintain - you'll get more breathless at r30 and again will have to stop sooner. But some combination in there will feel easiest. For years my natural rhythm was r27 but has gone up to r28 or 29 now. I still erg most of my steady state at r20 but that's for the aerobic training effect...not to make the workout the most efficient.

[cococococo]

Thanks for the replies so far. I am

37, male, 193cm, 89kg
don’t have a lab tested hf max
highest I’ve seen while rowing was 145 but I try to keep it lowish
df=122
I almost always do one rest day inbetween rows
goals: increase general aerobic fitness

I’ll try for 19-20 s/m tomorrow. From my understanding I should lower the drag factor then (?)
As I said I thought low stroke rates are more efficient.

[MPx]

Stats suggest you should be well suited to the erg and can significantly improve your scores over time if you stick at it.

No need to lower DF - that's just about what feels best for you and as long as its not at the extremes then anything is fine.

Very unikely that 145 is anywhere near your maxHR...but it might be - at your age my max was over 200. Max is whatever it is - we are all different and no amount of training will affect it much - it will just slow a bit as you age. Resting HR will lower as you get fitter. Often 60+ before training (even 90+ for some) and may go down to 40 or even less once well trained.

Efficiency is about more bang for your buck however that works for you. Slower rates may suit less-fit stronger people, higher rates might suit fitter weaker people - but there's no rules about that. Just make sure your form is OK as that is fundamental to the stroke. At your size (taller and slimmer than me!) 2:47 pace is quite slow, so its possible you have an issue with your stroke like "shooting the slide" (this is where your strong leg push moves the seat back along the rail, but you haven't got your core locked so you just lean further forward and don't translate all of the force to the handle). Search out some videos of technique, and take one of yourself from the side to see if you can see any differences that need to change.

Very best of luck with it - will look forward to reading about your progress.

[jamesg]

6500m, 2:47 split, 16s/m, 122 average heart rate, steadily increasing, peaking at 139 at the end. 37, male, 193cm, 89kg

That's 75Watt, a stroke worth 75/16 = 4.7 Watt-minutes and 75/89kg = 0.85W/kg.

We all need to learn to row, since no one is born with an oar in their hands.

Rowing with correct style can make you go quite fast, since the legs are put to full use with all the muscle in thighs and hips; and also use of your height as regards the length of the stroke.

At your size and age 200W at rate 20 will be quite easy, but maybe not for 30 minutes. So start with say 20 strokes, 3-4 times, after checking how it's done.

See:
https://www.britishrowing.org/indoor-rowing/
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[p_b82]

As others have said, I think you're most likely not getting the most out of your stroke. I would also comment that it is most probably during the leg drive phase.

Your age/dimensions are very similar to mine; when I first started ~2:40 pace was my HR capped UT2 pace ~@150 bpm.

If you're using a wrist/arm based HR monitor then you might be getting false readings - as they are known to not be as accurate with rowing compared to a chest strap.

That said - taking the HR numbers aside:
How hard does the effort feel out of 10? Would you be able to hold a conversation while doing this pace?

If it was really hard work, then you've probably just got a low peak HR; I have a high "working" rate and can sustain rates that training guides suggest are one/two bands higher than they feel to me during the pieces.
So don't take numbers/ ranges as gospel; but use them as a guide for yourself.

caveats here about overall health / not a Dr etc etc
but if you want to find your max observed rate on the erg, do a ~20min session. You can either incrementally push harder from the start in ladder fashion until you can't go anymore, or find a pace that is really hard work, but for the last 2 mins really push yourself (a 5K TT for me is perfect) - and for the last 30s give everything you have left.
It is horrible, but for me it was eye opening to blitz through my previously assumed max HR by a good 10bpm to 190 - I did cover the HR during the piece so I couldn't see it though!

To find the sweet spot in rate/pace I needed to make sure I'd got my HR up to within 20-30bpm of my target HR rate via warm up; and then I could do the rate/pace experiments. At least 10 mins for me at each stroke rate was able to give me better data to work with.
I was aiming for 160 bpm as my sustained HR which is ~80% my max, but it was a point where I stopped getting HR creep on the longer sessions.

Initially I found that r28 gave me the lowest HR for the pace - but I then spent about 6 months last year working on my stroke, specifically to generate more force per stroke (aka improve my technique). My sweet spot is now around R23 +-1; and I'm generating more power at these lower rates as well.

[cococococo]

Ok guys, new row in.

I increased to 22s/m and reduced df to 114.
1 sec faster and a lower heart rate (122->118)
But it still felt pretty exhausting

A friend of mine is in a rowing club and said my technique is not far off. But I’m still confused because I’m so much slower than all the others seem to be.

[p_b82]

You've not said about your general fitness to start with.

It might just be hard work at the power levels you're putting out just due to your current baseline. The good news, is it's going to get easier the longer you stick at it.

What does your force curve look like on your stroke - other than shallow - is it a smooth U in the middle, or is it to the left/right of the display, or with lumps in it?

I found it a useful tool to help me work on my stroke when I was starting.

I spent a while to start my rowing journey with just building the muscle memory before I was too worried about the pace - and then I had to re-learn my technique because I pulled my biceps (bent elbows during the drive) when I started to ramp up the power, so don't be too hasty with things until you are confident your technique is sound.

You can also break each movement of the stroke down - via pick drills (and the reverse pick drill) to isolate each motion and practice as warm up activities.

[jamesg]

felt pretty exhausting

Well so it is. That's why we do it. Rowing uses the legs, which are strong. If unfit, they very quickly overload our energy systems, which then improve.

So keep at it, but don't expect to go miles all at once.

If you want to check just how fit you are, try climbing stairs. One 3m flight at 90 kg in 30 seconds is about 95Watt. The pain starts at the 3rd flight, I find.

[Dangerscouse]

Ok guys, new row in.

I increased to 22s/m and reduced df to 114.
1 sec faster and a lower heart rate (122->118)
But it still felt pretty exhausting

A friend of mine is in a rowing club and said my technique is not far off. But I’m still confused because I’m so much slower than all the others seem to be.

For a seemingly simple exercise it's surprisingly very technical as you'll leak power if you're not careful, and you do need to be patient to allow your body to adapt to the movement.

When you see experienced rowers, or any athletes, doing something it always looks so simple and achievable, but it takes many hours of practice to get to what they make look effortless. As an example, Alex Gregory (GB Olympic gold medal winner) rows a longer distance steady pace, at r19 and 1:49, but he looks like he's hardly trying.