2k racing - does this make sense?

[NickKira]

Currently I row a 2k with a DF of around 112 and at around SR of 29. A more experienced rower said recently I could look at trying a higher DF and SR. That sounded beyond me, but seeing the recent indoor rowing champs on YT I see a SR of 33-35 is quite normal.

Is the idea behind a high SR to not let the flywheel slow much between strokes? And therefore I should indeed use both a higher DF and up the SR, since the most power in a stroke is getting the wheel moving from the catch and by using a higher SR I am using the power to keep the flywheel moving not accelerating it.

Does that make sense, or am I completely off track with this train of thought?

[Sakly]

Rate and drag are both completely individual settings and need to match your preference.
From technical standpoint you could say, that a higher rate and a higher drag at the same time will give you roughly the same feeling for each stroke, as the higher drag leads to higher slow down rate, but you catch it earlier due to higher stroke rate, thus feeling equivalent.
In the end you need the capacity to create the same power in the strokes at the higher stroke rate (regardless of the drag), otherwise you won't have an advantage.
For me personally I like to work on the lower range of rate, ~29-30, with a bit higher drag around 140 for a 2k. This seems to be the sweet spot for me. Lower drag or higher rates give me less good results.

[Dangerscouse]

I honestly think people get far too fixated on drag factor and stroke rate as the solution to suddenly becoming a lot faster.

It's far more important to view them as a means to an end to make you the most efficient that you can be. This may be higher or lower than other people, but there's a tipping point in stroke rate and drag factor where you'll physiologically not be producing as much power due to strength limitations, breathing sequence, oxygen utilisation, to name a few things.

Keep experimenting with what works best for you, but don't assume that, for example, r34 and 130df is the best option and will make you faster.

[MPx]

... but don't assume that, for example, r34 and 130df is the best option and will make you faster.

Ha - yes agreed....but in practice it probably will won't it?, because of what Sascha said. It will facilitate more power going in to the machine which will mean faster, but unless there's hitherto been some huge inefficiency it will only be sustainable for a shorter time until the OP gets fitter/stronger.

[Sakly]

... but don't assume that, for example, r34 and 130df is the best option and will make you faster.

Ha - yes agreed....but in practice it probably will won't it?, because of what Sascha said. It will facilitate more power going in to the machine which will mean faster, but unless there's hitherto been some huge inefficiency it will only be sustainable for a shorter time until the OP gets fitter/stronger.

Higher drag will only put more power into the machine, when you are able to pull at the same speed. Otherwise you loose power or it's equal.
Higher rate will only put more power into the machine, if you pull the strokes with the same speed, at least with the same ratio of rate increase. If power in each stroke is reduced, then you could end with a higher power average, if you add enough strokes to your rate.
These are exactly the reasons, why is not only simple math. It depends on the rowers abilities to produce same stroke output on higher dampers and/or higher rates. Stu mentioned many factors, which affect this.

[Dangerscouse]

Ha - yes agreed....but in practice it probably will won't it?, because of what Sascha said. It will facilitate more power going in to the machine which will mean faster, but unless there's hitherto been some huge inefficiency it will only be sustainable for a shorter time until the OP gets fitter/stronger.

All things being equal, it will, but there's so much nuance to it all, as Sascha highlighted, that's why I always bang on about experimenting with almost everything that can be changed.

There's a tendency for people to look for, and subsequently advise that if you do this, you'll get that. As an example, r34 should be good for me, as r28-30 is my natural comfort zone, but r33+ is a tipping point where I seem to have diminishing returns.

As I always say for a seemingly simple exercise, it's surprisingly technical, and I just want the OP to not be blinkered in to what needs to be done. I'll always be perpetually inquisitive as circumstances change on a macro and micro level.

[jamesg]

Is the idea behind a high SR to not let the flywheel slow much between strokes?

Could be, nothing is written. A long time ago we raced at 32 to 36, but elite crews now pull at 40 all the way even increasing to 48 at the finish.

Even I find myself using a fast in and out finish with no layback, when doing short Wods at 36 or more; but not because it makes me slower. The longer the chain is engaged per minute, the more work we can do, without increased force.

So the answer is: try it. If it suits you, develop the style and train it for use.

[hikeplusrow]

I think this is an individual thing based on the strength of the athlete. You find your own level. Damper settings are like gears on a bike. In cycling, it's broadly accepted that a higher cadence (SR equivalent) is preferable, but the size of the gear used (DF equivalent) is dependant on strength. Obviously, a cyclist pedalling a 72 inch gear at 100 rpm will not be as fast as a cyclist pedalling a 100 inch gear at 100 rpm. It's all about strength. With erging, whether you're in the right ball park will be to an extent determined by your ability to comfortably maintain correct technique/form at a given SR/DF.

[Sakly]

I think this is an individual thing based on the strength of the athlete. You find your own level. Damper settings are like gears on a bike. In cycling, it's broadly accepted that a higher cadence (SR equivalent) is preferable, but the size of the gear used (DF equivalent) is dependant on strength. Obviously, a cyclist pedalling a 72 inch gear at 100 rpm will not be as fast as a cyclist pedalling a 100 inch gear at 100 rpm. It's all about strength. With erging, whether you're in the right ball park will be to an extent determined by your ability to comfortably maintain correct technique/form at a given SR/DF.

It's not only based on the strength of the athlete, it's more depending on the speed one can apply at a specific drag and maintain that with the given rate.
I often read the comparison with bike gears for drag/damper, but it's not true. On a specific bike gear and a specific cadence, you will get a specific speed, it's a fixed ratio, you won't have any chance to change the speed with same cadence. On the rower you can work a wide range of speeds with the same spm by pulling slower/faster and shorter/longer strokes. I can work from 2:06 (or even slower of course) to 1:52 with an 18spm piece. This clearly shows there are more aspects in a stroke, than in pedalling on a bike with fixed gears.

I agree on that, stronger athletes with less stamina will probably use higher drags and lower rates compared to not so strong athletes, which probably use lower drags and higher rates to create the same results. But there is no fixed ratio like on the bike with gears.

[hikeplusrow]

I think this is an individual thing based on the strength of the athlete. You find your own level. Damper settings are like gears on a bike. In cycling, it's broadly accepted that a higher cadence (SR equivalent) is preferable, but the size of the gear used (DF equivalent) is dependant on strength. Obviously, a cyclist pedalling a 72 inch gear at 100 rpm will not be as fast as a cyclist pedalling a 100 inch gear at 100 rpm. It's all about strength. With erging, whether you're in the right ball park will be to an extent determined by your ability to comfortably maintain correct technique/form at a given SR/DF.

It's not only based on the strength of the athlete, it's more depending on the speed one can apply at a specific drag and maintain that with the given rate.
I often read the comparison with bike gears for drag/damper, but it's not true. On a specific bike gear and a specific cadence, you will get a specific speed, it's a fixed ratio, you won't have any chance to change the speed with same cadence. On the rower you can work a wide range of speeds with the same spm by pulling slower/faster and shorter/longer strokes. I can work from 2:06 (or even slower of course) to 1:52 with an 18spm piece. This clearly shows there are more aspects in a stroke, than in pedalling on a bike with fixed gears.

I agree on that, stronger athletes with less stamina will probably use higher drags and lower rates compared to not so strong athletes, which probably use lower drags and higher rates to create the same results. But there is no fixed ratio like on the bike with gears.

I'm hearing you, but the point I was really trying to make is that no one is going to do a 5:45 2k using a 90 DF.

[Sakly]

I think this is an individual thing based on the strength of the athlete. You find your own level. Damper settings are like gears on a bike. In cycling, it's broadly accepted that a higher cadence (SR equivalent) is preferable, but the size of the gear used (DF equivalent) is dependant on strength. Obviously, a cyclist pedalling a 72 inch gear at 100 rpm will not be as fast as a cyclist pedalling a 100 inch gear at 100 rpm. It's all about strength. With erging, whether you're in the right ball park will be to an extent determined by your ability to comfortably maintain correct technique/form at a given SR/DF.

It's not only based on the strength of the athlete, it's more depending on the speed one can apply at a specific drag and maintain that with the given rate.
I often read the comparison with bike gears for drag/damper, but it's not true. On a specific bike gear and a specific cadence, you will get a specific speed, it's a fixed ratio, you won't have any chance to change the speed with same cadence. On the rower you can work a wide range of speeds with the same spm by pulling slower/faster and shorter/longer strokes. I can work from 2:06 (or even slower of course) to 1:52 with an 18spm piece. This clearly shows there are more aspects in a stroke, than in pedalling on a bike with fixed gears.

I agree on that, stronger athletes with less stamina will probably use higher drags and lower rates compared to not so strong athletes, which probably use lower drags and higher rates to create the same results. But there is no fixed ratio like on the bike with gears.

I'm hearing you, but the point I was really trying to make is that no one is going to do a 5:45 2k using a 90 DF.

Probably not, but even this would be possible, if you have the length (=very tall guys) AND can pull very fast (=high amount type 2 muscle fibres) on a higher rate. Such a guy would probably pull a better 2k at DF 110 than DF 140.
I think the end ranges of DF (~80 and ~210) are very likely to be not used for a race (except very short distances). I bet noone would make a 5:45 2k on 210 either, so that shows there is more into it.

[JaapvanE]

I often read the comparison with bike gears for drag/damper, but it's not true. On a specific bike gear and a specific cadence, you will get a specific speed, it's a fixed ratio, you won't have any chance to change the speed with same cadence. On the rower you can work a wide range of speeds with the same spm by pulling slower/faster and shorter/longer strokes. I can work from 2:06 (or even slower of course) to 1:52 with an 18spm piece. This clearly shows there are more aspects in a stroke, than in pedalling on a bike with fixed gears.

I agree that is where the analogy ends. The analogy is meant for describing the effect of drag on the calculations of the PM5, where most assume it is just resistance being added. By changing the force/speed in a stroke one can do a lot, where on a bike it won't.

[JaapvanE]

Probably not, but even this would be possible, if you have the length (=very tall guys) AND can pull very fast (=high amount type 2 muscle fibres) on a higher rate. Such a guy would probably pull a better 2k at DF 110 than DF 140.
I think the end ranges of DF (~80 and ~210) are very likely to be not used for a race (except very short distances). I bet noone would make a 5:45 2k on 210 either, so that shows there is more into it.

I think with those speeds, it is difficult to get a good catch on DF110. At DF210, you probably can,but it comes to real power endurance at a level not many will train.

[iain]

I believe that the optimum rating is dependent on how your fitness compares to your strength. There are very strong people who race at 34+ but that is because they are also very fit and so can maintain the stronger stronger strokes despite rating high (ie with less recovery between strokes). As a result the optimal for any person will change over time as their training has an impact.

The other point is coordinating with breathing as many people need 2 breaths per stroke, some people struggle to get 2 good breaths in at high ratings and so cannot maintain them when rowing a 2k. You need to train at a higher rating to get the timing right. Many people use 500m intervals a a higher than 2k rating to get used to this before trying to maintain a higher rate for a 2k. But in the end it is about finding what works best for you.