Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

[ShortAndStout]

How much of y'alls training is anything sprint related? I'm finding myself gravitating towards long distance more because I really don't like doing interval work. Much easier mentally for me to do a 75 minute UT2 workout than a 15 minute AT workout, go figure.

A lot of what I do is UT2 and some UT1, and lately I haven't done anything more impactful.

I ask because in researching this topic I've discovered a lot of information suggesting that training for a 2K with TR workouts is detrimental to long distance endurance (muscle chemistry, unsure) and the same is true in reverse - training for extreme long distance kills your 2K time. I don't care about my 2K time but the implication there is that "typical" 2K training sessions, like a typical AT workout perhaps, may actually be detrimental to an endurance athlete's performance if done as a regular part of the training plan because it either doesn't develop the right type of twitch fibers, or conditions your body for the wrong thing.

[Elizabeth]

When I have trained for distance events, I have kept in short faster sessions about once a week (ballpark 2k pace). I also did longer intervals once a week. The endurance work and the speed work seemed to have complimented each other well, and I set an (at the time) 2k PB not that far apart from a marathon age group record.

Stu, really good information there. Thanks for posting it.

[Dangerscouse]

I'm with Elizabeth on this. The science tells you not to, but in reality I think there are good crossover benefits to doing it all. The mental side of coping with a hard effort also shouldn't be discounted. A good example, I always think, is LeBron James. He's aerobically supreme, but he's also very muscular, and this is contrary to the science. Admittedly he is possibly a huge outlier, but you get my drift.

I'm not sure that it needs to be really tough, but I'd definitely recommend grey zone training e.g 85-90% HR sessions, and these could be endurance intervals or a mid distance session (8k+). It doesn't have to be too often, but keeping some variety is worthwhile.

When I was doing my ultra distances, I still did hot dynamic Pilates and a 45 mins spin class every week. Both of these were really intense and could easily be compared to sprint training, but I really felt the benefits. It can mean you need a bit more rest than usual, but you should adapt to the effort.

[RWAGR]

Agree w the above. When I'm doing lots of distance training on the erg I prefer to make my cross training sessions shorter and harder. So I'll do a 30 min HIIT or Tabata ride on the Peloton, or some hill runs on the treadmill. I particularly enjoy tabata as it's hard to replicate on an erg.

[jcross485]

I'm in the process of pushing distance work but do find some speedier work tends to benefit my lower end work (UT2, UT1). As long as the harder work doesn't differ drastically in technique or timing in the stroke, it seems to make my UT2/1 stroke much better (cleaner, stronger, etc.).

I could see there being negative implications for those really pushing the envelope with the most elite of times but for the majority of us, I think a once a week harder session like a few have mentioned would actually benefit the distance work, and the distance work will build a nice base upon which you can layer in the hard work.

For example, you probably wouldn't see someone in sub-6:00 2k shape push for a similarly elite marathon time within the same block and vice versa, just like you wouldn't see the worlds top 1600m-5k runners challenge for the worlds top half marathons or marathons in the same block. For the rest of us though, there would likely be a lot of carry over.

[ShortAndStout]

Good to hear actually, thanks all for the input.

[fancyoats]

Ive been reading this thread with interest for a while now. After I finished the BPP, I decided to start aiming for building up to a marathon. Over the past few weeks, I've been doing one long row on Saturday (I just don't have time either before or after work during the week, unfortunately, to put in more than an hour). I've done a half marathon, another 20K, a 24K, a 27K and today a 28K. I've been breaking them up into chunks broken up by 1:00 rest to take a drink, and the last two sessions I've experimented with some energy gummy gel thingies during the rest too. So the sessions were actually 4x5k, 4x6k, 3x9k, and 4x7k. I figure I'll probably want to stop and eat/drink over the marathon distance, so might as well train that way.

I've heard it said around here that once you can do 30k, you are pretty much as prepared as you're gonna be, so might as well do the whole thing. I'm probably only a couple weeks away from giving it a shot, then, right? (Maybe I'll give it a go on Christmas, lol - or maybe New Year's Day)

Is it important to do a taper before the FM? What would that taper look like?

[Elizabeth]

ErgZone - I just did a 500m and let it sit without touching it for 12 minutes in the middle, and it did not time out. So that seems like a good approach to keeping it active if you need to take a bathroom break 70k in.

I've heard it said around here that once you can do 30k, you are pretty much as prepared as you're gonna be, so might as well do the whole thing. I'm probably only a couple weeks away from giving it a shot, then, right? (Maybe I'll give it a go on Christmas, lol - or maybe New Year's Day)

Is it important to do a taper before the FM? What would that taper look like?

You are probably ready now, although I think a 30-35k session could help with confidence. I've started off the last two years with something long (42k in 2022, 50k in 2023) and love starting off the year on that kind of foot. And then mimosas and fresh bagels and a day of movies. Perfection.

I personally wouldn't do anything intense within about 3 days of it. Maybe starting 4 days out or so, drop the length of your sessions by about a third to a half while keeping the intensity, e.g. 2x2000m instead of 4x2000 but at the same pace, 30-45 minutes of steady state instead of 60. Lots of carbs the two days before. Sleep enough.

[Dangerscouse]

I've heard it said around here that once you can do 30k, you are pretty much as prepared as you're gonna be, so might as well do the whole thing. I'm probably only a couple weeks away from giving it a shot, then, right? (Maybe I'll give it a go on Christmas, lol - or maybe New Year's Day)

Is it important to do a taper before the FM? What would that taper look like?

I'd also probably want to do 32k or maybe 35k, as it can become a different kind of effort at these distances, but it's not essential. If you just want to finish, you could slow down if you need to, which should mitigate the issues.

Personally I don't taper, but I'm probably a bad example to follow, so listen to Elizabeth. Definitely have good carbs, lots of water and sleep in the few days beforehand.

[GlennUk]

And just to give a different view, my FM plan didnt include anything longer than 97mins, which compares with my last FM of 3hrs 11mins which at that pace was c. HM distance.

The 100k plan was similar, i.e. that the max duration of the plan was c. 50% of the anticipated total duration.

This is the Eddie Fletcher plan.

[penkethj]

I've heard it said around here that once you can do 30k, you are pretty much as prepared as you're gonna be, so might as well do the whole thing. I'm probably only a couple weeks away from giving it a shot, then, right? (Maybe I'll give it a go on Christmas, lol - or maybe New Year's Day)

I was asking myself (and the forums) exactly this a few weeks ago.
Had done a few HMs, a 25k and a 30k. Think the general consensus from all the advice I received was if you’re looking just to finish then 30k is fine. However if you’re wanting to hit a certain pace or go a bit faster it would be useful to do maybe 32k/35k at the target pace.

I went for it and finished in the time I planned/predicted. There was always the fear of the unknown after 30k but once I saw the metres remaining drop below 10,000m, I felt like it was the home stretch and kinda knew I was going to finish.

[Gustel]

Ive been reading this thread with interest for a while now. After I finished the BPP, I decided to start aiming for building up to a marathon. Over the past few weeks, I've been doing one long row on Saturday (I just don't have time either before or after work during the week, unfortunately, to put in more than an hour). I've done a half marathon, another 20K, a 24K, a 27K and today a 28K. I've been breaking them up into chunks broken up by 1:00 rest to take a drink, and the last two sessions I've experimented with some energy gummy gel thingies during the rest too. So the sessions were actually 4x5k, 4x6k, 3x9k, and 4x7k. I figure I'll probably want to stop and eat/drink over the marathon distance, so might as well train that way.

I've heard it said around here that once you can do 30k, you are pretty much as prepared as you're gonna be, so might as well do the whole thing. I'm probably only a couple weeks away from giving it a shot, then, right? (Maybe I'll give it a go on Christmas, lol - or maybe New Year's Day)

Is it important to do a taper before the FM? What would that taper look like?

I just checked my logbook because I couldn’t remember. I have done three rows which were longer than a HM. And these three were my three marathon rows. My experience is that HM distance is sufficient as preparation. I don’t follow a marathon training plan. It is just my own unstructured training experience. I reduced the load for a few days before the FM. I think that I had at least a rest day and a day with a steady row.

[Elizabeth]

Yesterday, I became the first woman to row an individual century in less than 7 hours.

ROW:
https://log.concept2.com/profile/1558013/log/82043761

TRAINING:
Most of my hard sessions lately have consisted of WRICH Versa Qualifiers, ErgWars Bike Sessions, and one session a week in a heart rate zone that many here would classify as UT1. Besides that, easy sessions in the 60-80 minute range. My longest single session training for this was 22k, which was a speedwork session with a decent warmup and cooldown. I did basically no work at target pace, just various types of speedwork plus easy meters.

TAPER because FancyOats asked:
My last hard Erg session was Wednesday, and was normal mileage. Thursday was Sea Survival Training (basically an active rest day), Friday and Saturday both involved 45 minutes of easy rowerg. Also, I tried to hit carbs hard during this time.

TECHNOLOGY:
I was planning on doing this with friends, and we had a meeting the day before to try to figure it out. We landed on using ErgZone's live capability so that we could see each other's splits, and then we used Zoom for video. ErgZone allows a stand-alone Century with 5k splits, which I really prefer to the single "variable interval" in the official instructions. We could see when each other ticked over to the next 5k and would cheer each time. The peace was also rankable; I was wondering if I would need to reach out to customer support but that was unfounded. It also allowed one of my friends to be inactive for nearly two hours without timing out. Overall, highly recommend this approach.

NUTRITION:
I had really big plans. And then I could barely stomach anything, and was literally choking on any solids I tried to consume. So basically, one liter of fluids with carbs and electrolytes per hour (the makeup of this varied), plus whatever I could get down for the first 2.5 hours. Banana worked best. Everything else was too dry or too chewy. Items tried: Clif Bloks, Clif Bars, gummy bears, bagel.

My husband was tasked with regular check-ins to make sure that I had refills of stuff as needed. This ended up being extra banana, and a lot of fluids. He also took care of Disney+ and Netflix for me.

APPROACH:
I just tried to hold a projected finish time of 6:59:xx on the monitor. I was getting cute with rate pyramids for the first 30k or so, then figured I needed to settle into a faster rate and lower pressure than my normal steady state for it to be sustainable - r23 as opposed to r19-20. I also realized early on that there was a very good chance that sub-7 would not happen, but said that I was just going to hold it until I couldn't hold it any longer.

I intended to take no breaks, based on a conversation with Joel Naukkarinen, but I started having seam issues with the seat of my uni with 44.5k remaining. I was prepared to deal with chafing, but the location wasn't great, and I figured I would rather take a quick hit and get on bottoms with a different cut. I changed next to the erg, losing maybe a minute, and the next 5k was probably the most awful of the entire row. My hip bones felt like they were cutting through my glutes or something, and I couldn't get comfortable for a long while. Finally it got more manageable, or at least sustainable.

I hurt. But it didn't feel like I hurt any less if I eased off the pace, and it felt like the best way to handle it was just to ride through it until I physically couldn't any more. Setting little micro-goals with meters helped a lot.

[ShortAndStout]

Elizabeth, amazing job! Congratulations seriously.

When I look at your log data I am flummoxed as to how to maintain your HR over that time, my SS HR hits in 15 minutes what yours does in 7 hours! I guess I need to work on my HR training some more lol

[aussie nick]

truly remarkable stuff Elizabeth. Congratulations! A testament to your fitness, training and mental strength

How is your body today?