Concept2 Rankings with weight selection

[jamesg]

The Log & Rankings are already fantastic ,but with this i find it even more fair and will motivate people even more!

Rowing is a sport, so motivation comes from doing it well. Doing it with correct technique lets us use a lot of muscle hard, but avoids injury so lets us keep going lifelong.

So how does your proposal help us to row well and avoid injuries?

[Sakly]

The Log & Rankings are already fantastic ,but with this i find it even more fair and will motivate people even more!

Rowing is a sport, so motivation comes from doing it well. Doing it with correct technique lets us use a lot of muscle hard, but avoids injury so lets us keep going lifelong.

So how does your proposal help us to row well and avoid injuries?

You are talking from a different perspective
If you want to climb up the rankings, then you need to eliminate all factors which potentially prevent this - equal out all "objective" parameters as good as possible to need fight less intensive.
If you want to perform well into high ages, you can do that even without rankings

[Spinal]

If your logic is right, then it shouldn't be possible for me to compete against rowers ~90kg+ regardless their height and that is not true. My last HM was placed 16 of 773 verified.

No disrespect Salky but your HM split isn't even that close to the what the big guys in this sport can pull for the full marathon distance or a 90min SS at rate 20. Rowing has been dominated by big tall athletes for a reason.

No worries, I know you are right, if you refer to the top level trained guys in the top of the rankings.
But you have to put it in perspective: I am rowing for a year and a half now, 3 times/week average, cumulating 45k average (lately a bit more). So I am clearly not training to get to the peak of the iceberg, into the top 5 or so. And I realistically know that this will never happen, even IF I would train fully focused on rowing. But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results. So a conclusion that only weighting 10kg more is giving you the huge advantage to be faster without question is not right. Even to be 10cm taller is no guarantee that this will be the case.

If you compare to the top elite specific trained athletes as a "normal guy" you will always lose.

Look at YouTuber Mark Lewis who does fitness videos, he was able to knock out a 2k in under 6:30 with very little erging in part becasue he is a tall strong fit guy. When it comes to running he struggles with a 20min 5k as his frame then becomes a distinct disadvantage.

Many local club rugby players pull splits that you or I will never achieve even with the best training plan, diet or otherwise. These aren't elite rowers but big fit strong men who use the rower as a small part of their overall training..... if they did the same amount of work on the erg as us the numbers wouldn't be the same ballpark.

[Sakly]

No disrespect Salky but your HM split isn't even that close to the what the big guys in this sport can pull for the full marathon distance or a 90min SS at rate 20. Rowing has been dominated by big tall athletes for a reason.

No worries, I know you are right, if you refer to the top level trained guys in the top of the rankings.
But you have to put it in perspective: I am rowing for a year and a half now, 3 times/week average, cumulating 45k average (lately a bit more). So I am clearly not training to get to the peak of the iceberg, into the top 5 or so. And I realistically know that this will never happen, even IF I would train fully focused on rowing. But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results. So a conclusion that only weighting 10kg more is giving you the huge advantage to be faster without question is not right. Even to be 10cm taller is no guarantee that this will be the case.

If you compare to the top elite specific trained athletes as a "normal guy" you will always lose.

Look at YouTuber Mark Lewis who does fitness videos, he was able to knock out a 2k in under 6:30 with very little erging in part becasue he is a tall strong fit guy. When it comes to running he struggles with a 20min 5k as his frame then becomes a distinct disadvantage.

Many local club rugby players pull splits that you or I will never achieve even with the best training plan, diet or otherwise. These aren't elite rowers but big fit strong men who use the rower as a small part of their overall training..... if they did the same amount of work on the erg as us the numbers wouldn't be the same ballpark.

Ok, probably my point was not exact. Some bigger and (especially) taller guy putting in the same work would probably outperform in any distance (even that is not guaranteed).
What I wanted to say is, that only weight or height alone will not lead to a better result in any case, the thread sounds like it would be like this. Surely a big tall guy can instantly pull lower splits probably even without training at all. But can he do it for 30mins (what is more related to your 5k run example)? A HM? That is related to specific training and not every big tall guy can do it, when not trained to do so.

What's the point in a low pull of 1:05 if I can do it once? What does it prove?
If any big tall guy could easily go for a 1:50 split HM, why are there so few entries? Probably because they do not focus on it. Probably because they cannot easily do it. Who knows...

[Spinal]

No worries, I know you are right, if you refer to the top level trained guys in the top of the rankings.
But you have to put it in perspective: I am rowing for a year and a half now, 3 times/week average, cumulating 45k average (lately a bit more). So I am clearly not training to get to the peak of the iceberg, into the top 5 or so. And I realistically know that this will never happen, even IF I would train fully focused on rowing. But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results. So a conclusion that only weighting 10kg more is giving you the huge advantage to be faster without question is not right. Even to be 10cm taller is no guarantee that this will be the case.

If you compare to the top elite specific trained athletes as a "normal guy" you will always lose.

Look at YouTuber Mark Lewis who does fitness videos, he was able to knock out a 2k in under 6:30 with very little erging in part becasue he is a tall strong fit guy. When it comes to running he struggles with a 20min 5k as his frame then becomes a distinct disadvantage.

Many local club rugby players pull splits that you or I will never achieve even with the best training plan, diet or otherwise. These aren't elite rowers but big fit strong men who use the rower as a small part of their overall training..... if they did the same amount of work on the erg as us the numbers wouldn't be the same ballpark.

Ok, probably my point was not exact. Some bigger and (especially) taller guy putting in the same work would probably outperform in any distance (even that is not guaranteed).
What I wanted to say is, that only weight or height alone will not lead to a better result in any case, the thread sounds like it would be like this. Surely a big tall guy can instantly pull lower splits probably even without training at all. But can he do it for 30mins (what is more related to your 5k run example)? A HM? That is related to specific training and not every big tall guy can do it, when not trained to do so.

What's the point in a low pull of 1:05 if I can do it once? What does it prove?
If any big tall guy could easily go for a 1:50 split HM, why are there so few entries? Probably because they do not focus on it. Probably because they cannot easily do it. Who knows...

I think you're flattering yourself here a bit.

[Sakly]

I think you're flattering yourself here a bit.

Possibly you are right, but that's not my intention.
I know very well what I am capable of and don't need to flatter myself.
I look into given data and compare what I see, that's all. If this data is reflecting all out efforts for each entry, I cannot be sure. This is why I wrote the last sentence.

[nick rockliff]

Look at YouTuber Mark Lewis who does fitness videos, he was able to knock out a 2k in under 6:30 with very little erging in part becasue he is a tall strong fit guy. When it comes to running he struggles with a 20min 5k as his frame then becomes a distinct disadvantage.

Many local club rugby players pull splits that you or I will never achieve even with the best training plan, diet or otherwise. These aren't elite rowers but big fit strong men who use the rower as a small part of their overall training..... if they did the same amount of work on the erg as us the numbers wouldn't be the same ballpark.

Ok, probably my point was not exact. Some bigger and (especially) taller guy putting in the same work would probably outperform in any distance (even that is not guaranteed).
What I wanted to say is, that only weight or height alone will not lead to a better result in any case, the thread sounds like it would be like this. Surely a big tall guy can instantly pull lower splits probably even without training at all. But can he do it for 30mins (what is more related to your 5k run example)? A HM? That is related to specific training and not every big tall guy can do it, when not trained to do so.

What's the point in a low pull of 1:05 if I can do it once? What does it prove?
If any big tall guy could easily go for a 1:50 split HM, why are there so few entries? Probably because they do not focus on it. Probably because they cannot easily do it. Who knows...

I think you're flattering yourself here a bit.

I don't think so, he is just comparing himself with his peers. This is all you can do.

IMHO you can be as big as you like but if you don't have the correct physiology you will reach a point where no matter what training you do, you won't improve.

[p_b82]

I was going to say - Sakly's numbers massively outperform mine - and I doubt I'm likely to ever beat them.

One factor is desire/motivation; but the other is that I doubt my aerobic capacity is as good, as It has always been a weakness for me in all activities since childhood. Genetically there's a lot of Asthma in the family as well.

If world rowing added a middle weight, then I'm sure there'd be the numbers of people that could fill the ranks to make competitions viable - the only challenge would be what would the banding actually be to make it a useful.

[Spinal]

I don't think so, he is just comparing himself with his peers. This is all you can do.

But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results.

Probably because they cannot easily do it. Who knows...

IMHO you can be as big as you like but if you don't have the correct physiology you will reach a point where no matter what training you do, you won't improve.

Correct, we are all limited by our physiology. That doesn't discount the fact that a fit strong 100kg 6ft5 man wont need anywhere near the Vo2 max or lactate clearing of a fit strong 68kg 5ft10 man to pull a 6:30 2k.

[nick rockliff]

I don't think so, he is just comparing himself with his peers. This is all you can do.

But given my amount of training AND my body stats I know that even (much) bigger guys putting in the same work cannot get the same results.

Probably because they cannot easily do it. Who knows...

IMHO you can be as big as you like but if you don't have the correct physiology you will reach a point where no matter what training you do, you won't improve.

Correct, we are all limited by our physiology. That doesn't discount the fact that a fit strong 100kg 6ft5 man wont need anywhere near the Vo2 max or lactate clearing of a fit strong 68kg 5ft10 man to pull a 6:30 2k.

Over the years I've been doing this sport I have come across many people in their 40s who are 6ft plus and 90kg plus who haven't been able the achieve sub 7 for a 2k never mind 6.30. They will have put the training in too.

[Elizabeth]

I'm not sure why we are focused on Sackly's half marathon, but have three main issues with this proposed system.

Data availability. There's an inherent assumption in the spreadsheet that the weights listed are correct. Frankly, I do not know anyone for whom they are correct. Mine is listed as 75kg, and I have ranked pieces weighing between 73kg and 78kg. This fluctuation is minor compared to some people I know. And the VO2max calculations are sensitive enough that it matters.

Choice of goals. This system incentivizes weight loss. It would be much easier for me to drop 6 kg than to drop 15 seconds off my 2k. And it would put me at a weight where I have struggled with Relative Energy Deficiency in Sports, and all of the corresponding things that come with that - including bone fractures. Most athletes will perform at their personal best overall time within a certain weight window. Shorter pieces will reward extra muscle, longer pieces will reward lighter weights to push up and down the slide, but there can be a good balance. OP, you have the height to put on muscle and drop your times across all distances.

The assumption that competing within narrow bands is more motivating. Maybe for some, but I find it most motivating if a win is not assured, and I have to try my hardest and stretch and sometimes fall short. This stretch is more likely with more inclusive grouping (sometimes I will chase some of the lightweight guys), or setting handicaps and competing against people against whom I could not win in an open race. I was pretty open about chasing Matt Stankiewitch's CTC times last month, what handicap I used, and dying in the attempt. But I also performed much better than I would have if I had set my sights based on a very limited group of people who was most "like" me.

[jackarabit]

I was going to say - Sakly's numbers massively outperform mine - and I doubt I'm likely to ever beat them.

One factor is desire/motivation; but the other is that I doubt my aerobic capacity is as good, as It has always been a weakness for me in all activities since childhood. Genetically there's a lot of Asthma in the family as well.

If world rowing added a middle weight, then I'm sure there'd be the numbers of people that could fill the ranks to make competitions viable - the only challenge would be what would the banding actually be to make it a useful.

It should be *NOTEd that your stats line evidences a bias toward endurance performance similar to Sasha’s. As does mine. Slow and steady gets the unpleasantly-protracted jobs done. Low pull gets the crashed bus off Lois Lane’s inert body damn skippy. Horses for courses.

[iain]

For rowing as a non-weight bearing sport VO2 max is usually quoted as an absolute rather than /kg (which, while useful is incongruous to me as how can a "maximum" be relative to body mass?).

We are all free to cut the data how we like, but the official categories are what matter. Please note these were deliberately relaxed as IIRC initially they were primarily for OTW rowers to compare their erg times in the off season, as it would be unusual for LWt to be as disciplined in the off season the 71.5kg limit was raised to 75Kg, this was before erging became a sport in its own right! As erging is often done by athletes who have ceased competing in their main sports (and so the average age is higher than most), I think the higher limit is sensible as body fat % tends to increase with age (not due to aging per se), so this probably keeps the relative sizes of the weight limits closer than they would otherwise be (although LWt do seem to be more common in the older categories). I say this despite being around the OTW limit so this disadvantages me!

[HornetMaX]

1m73 72Kg 49yo speaking here

I'd say the suggestion (weight ranges) makes *some* sense and anyway if it is implemented as the other categories you'll have the option to use to the usual LW / HW / any weight. That doesn't mean that competitions should have weight ranges beyond the classical LW/HW, but yeah, as a logbook tool it makes sense to me.

I actually have a minor suggestion, loosely related: on top of the usual age ranges (e.g. 30-39) you could have a range relative to your age, as in "your age +/-5y"). I'm 49yo, that would be 44-53. This avoids the potential "bump" when you change range (e.g. for me soon, going from 49 to 50).
I know there's the "custom" option, but that's less practical as you have to enter the bounds manually each time. The same could be applied to weights ("your weight +/- 5kg").

Anyway, we'd better spend this time training

[Dangerscouse]

I actually have a minor suggestion, loosely related: on top of the usual age ranges (e.g. 30-39) you could have a range relative to your age, as in "your age +/-5y"). I'm 49yo, that would be 44-53. This avoids the potential "bump" when you change range (e.g. for me soon, going from 49 to 50).

As a fellow 49er, soon to be a 50er, I like this suggestion. I'm entering a virtual competition next month which will be 40-49....just getting my excuses in now