Is Zone 2 training really possible on Rower?

[hardlyart]

I'm looking to introduce 4 1hr steady state, zone 2 sessions per week into my training. I currently strength train, and am a rock climber, but feel zone 2 cardio is missing in my programming. (Having been totally sold on the importance of zone 2 by Dr Peter Attia in his great book, Outlive). I understand that zone 2 is not THE ideal metric to measure effort, that being UT2 training, but I own a chest strap and find HR to be the easiest way to measure effort at the moment.

I use a C2 rower at my climbing gym and find staying in my zone 2 (133-143) difficult. (Sometimes too hard, sometimes boring, etc), and am torn between a BikeErg and a Rower. I like the idea of setting up my iPad and watching some movies while riding at home, BUT I am drawn to a rower too as I find it much more rewarding despite it being more difficult skill wise etc. Sometimes I think it might be less of a barrier to hop on the bike and put in an hour on those days where motivation is on the low side, or I'm already tired from my other training/have a big training day ahead or max effort climbing etc. Ive watched some videos on YouTube (like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXSIfSo ... visGardner) that poo-poo's the principle of zone 2, but am I right in thinking this is for serious, full time rowers only?

I understand too that max effort, VO2 training is doable on either machine...

The obvious answer is to get both the rower and the BikeErg but I'm pushed for space currently so this is not an option.

Does anyone here do and steady state zone 2 stuff on either a rower or a bike? Any advice, or words of wisdom for me?

[gvcormac]

I have had a rower for 30+ years and a bikeerg for about 2 years. I can use both happily for extended periods. I used the bike more because I've rigged up a table and I use it every morning while I'm drinking my first coffee and reading email. For rowing, I either focus on rowing itself (which is perfectly pleasant) or watch TV or participate in an on-line group session. For sprints, I prefer the rower. It uses more muscles and is thus easier to focus on the cardio aspect rather than on overcoming leg burn.

I also have a Ski Erg. It is not quite as easy to zone out while using it, but is possible. Generally I watch TV while using it.

[gvcormac]

P.S. Attia is clever and well spoken and basically evidence-based, but he's a bit obsessive.

[jcross485]

I'll start with this - you're better off picking something you can stick to. If you are more drawn to the rower, go that route. If you are more drawn to the bike, then go that route. Consistency matters more than RowErg vs. BikeErg (IMO).

As far as rowing for Z2, it's 100% possible. However, I think unless you take the time to build a solid technique and build up to the duration (1 hour), it's not the most ideal modality to start with. Once you get the technique and duration to a spot that is comfortable, it's very much possible.

I think rowing is a bit less intuitive when it comes to finding an "all day" pace, ie. Z2. It's pretty natural to come out hot and find your HR elevated quickly. There are several reasons for this but I would venture to guess that coming out with a stroke rate too high is one of the biggest reasons. If you're coming from a climbing background, I would think that strength is there but aerobic endurance/efficiency is not - that would be an even bigger reason to focus on developing consistency through a lower stroke rate (IMO) if you are looking to row for extended periods of time.

With it being a power-endurance sport with relatively low cadence (stroke rate) compared to cycling, walking/rucking/running, etc., I think it's easier to see some cardiac drift in that you end up above your intended target HR with rowing. Additionally, a key factor in cardiac drift is hydration/dehydration; with exercise and perspiration, blood volume goes down and HR will go up to compensate. With other modalities, its easier to hydrate during activity than in rowing.

[Elizabeth]

I haven't watched the video you linked, but based solely on the description and a couple of comments, it sounds like he's talking more about whether you should train primarily at 60-69% HR versus in another band, and not whether you can - is that right? Is your question more about correct heart rate bands, or on which machine is best for low intensity work?

I have both the RowErg and BikeErg, and it is possible to train in whatever zone you want on both - you just need to adjust your pace accordingly. The vast majority of my meters are on my RowErg. I know a couple of other people who have both and put most of their meters on the BikeErg. I think it's probably personal preference.

[jamesg]

I'm looking to introduce 4 1hr steady state, zone 2 sessions per week into my training.

That's a lot of rowing, however slow you go; but zone 2 is not all that slow if fit: 70% of a 2k test power. Whatever you do, develop your technique using the right muscle for the job in the right sequences; otherwise you risk injury due to repetition.

The C2 ergs could be ideal, if you know what Zone 2 is in terms of W/kg. Try 2W/kg once you know how rowing is done.

[Elizabeth]

I'm looking to introduce 4 1hr steady state, zone 2 sessions per week into my training.

That's a lot of rowing, however slow you go; but zone 2 is not all that slow if fit: 70% of a 2k test power. Whatever you do, develop your technique using the right muscle for the job in the right sequences; otherwise you risk injury due to repetition.

The C2 ergs could be ideal, if you know what Zone 2 is in terms of W/kg. Try 2W/kg once you know how rowing is done.

James, what's your source for 70% of 2k power? I've heard 50% of 2k and (I think) 70% of FTP, and both of those are pretty consistent with what I did yesterday for easy work - which landed at 49% and 69% respectively, with heart rate 70-75% of maximum. And without watching Travis's video, I wonder if he was arguing that this heart rate zone is better than 60-69% of maximum. I usually train 65-75%.

Edit- and yesterday was 2.18W/kg if that's your preferred metric.

[jcross485]

James, what's your source for 70% of 2k power? I've heard 50% of 2k and (I think) 70% of FTP, and both of those are pretty consistent with what I did yesterday for easy work - which landed at 49% and 69% respectively, with heart rate 70-75% of maximum. And without watching Travis's video, I wonder if he was arguing that this heart rate zone is better than 60-69% of maximum. I usually train 65-75%.

Edit- and yesterday was 2.18W/kg if that's your preferred metric.

Not James but haven't thought about things too much until this post. I went back and checked some numbers from today's session which I would consider high Z2. I haven't done a proper 2k or FTP test but max HR was 78%, avg HR was 74%. Power was 2.145w/kg.

[jamesg]

what's your source for 70% of 2k power?

Terry O'Neill's Interactive plans. There were three ways of setting training bands:

HR, presumably Range, up to 70, 80, 85 and 95%
Ratings, Aerobic (UT2 and 1) was 18 to 24.
2k Test Watts: 60, 70, 80, 85 and 105% for UT2, UT1, AT, TR and AN.

The O'Neill rating and HR bands appear word for word now in sites such as:
https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator
Table © the Concept 2 training guide.

[GlennUk]

Something to consider is that HR zones, however they are defined, generally result in numbers that are approximations. Not only that but the boundaries between zones are not absolute but somewhat fuzzy from my understanding. That is unless you have been tested in a lab. The mechanism to determine precisely what those HR ranges are for an individual are also different and are approximations.

The reason this is important is that all the videos and opinions in the world may not apply to you specifically, what works for me in terms of 'zones' may not work for you.

The point being you may well need to experiment with different approaches to your training to achieve the effects you desire.

I use a HR monitor and have routinely used HR values to understand my performance, both in training and when trying to do a TT. I use a simple metric of a % of my HRmax value, it seems to work for me, with an improved endurance, improved power and speed, and reduced resting HR consistently over the past 3 years or so.

I think I recall Mike Caviston (apologies to MC if i am misquoting) saying he prefers to rely on RPE rather than HR values as a better indicator of the training zones.

In conclusion, you can train at whatever level you want on either device. Im with James on whether erging at low rates/low HRs is 'easy', it can be but then again it can be a signfciantly workout, i typically do a speed/weights day, followed by two low rate days each of 45mns upwards at 18-20spm, HR 75-8-% HRmax. The low rate days are not easy and require discipline and mental toughness to stick to the plan, it may not leave me wheezing on the floor afterwards, but my body knows it has had a workout.

JMHO

Glenn

[JaapvanE]

In conclusion, you can train at whatever level you want on either device. Im with James on whether erging at low rates/low HRs is 'easy', it can be but then again it can be a signfciantly workout, i typically do a speed/weights day, followed by two low rate days each of 45mns upwards at 18-20spm, HR 75-8-% HRmax. The low rate days are not easy and require discipline and mental toughness to stick to the plan, it may not leave me wheezing on the floor afterwards, but my body knows it has had a workout.

Same here. I row based on HR and stay in a pace where cardiac drift is minimal, which seems to be HR 128 for me. End of zone 2 is 132 (based on 70% max observed HR), but when I do that for an hour it starts to drift.

Fighting boredom is a thing on those long rows for me. I tried watching movies, but my screen is too small and close (I use the tablet holder on the C2) so I get seasick. Might work if I just put a TV behind the rower at a distance, but that is something I still have to try. I currently use the EXR app (a Zwift-like app for rowing) where I row in a group of other rowers with roughly the same pace. That works for me as the scenery changes and I try to stay with the group. Might work for you too, some people are happy with the C2's real-time loop as a distraction. But looking at something else than the PM5 helps a lot I guess.

[Jerome]

Sometimes I think it might be less of a barrier to hop on the bike and put in an hour on those days where motivation is on the low side, or I'm already tired from my other training/have a big training day ahead or max effort climbing etc.

….

Does anyone here do and steady state zone 2 stuff on either a rower or a bike? Any advice, or words of wisdom for me?

I have all three ergs. If I had to pick one, just for putting in miles, meters or hours.. the bike by a landslide.

[Dangerscouse]

Nothing to add other than echoing the need to choose what works best for you, at a pace that feels right and possibly looks right too. I can row for hours, but I get bored after five minutes on a bike

I find HR to be quite fickle on occasions, but that might just be me, so I do tend towards RPE as a more reliable data point in addition to using HR.

I'm sure you know this already, but don't lose sight of the fact that erging does get easier with practice. Every dedicated erger's PBs in the early stages are their steady / semi steady training paces now

[ShortAndStout]

Same situation being a rock climber / strength training-er and I've been disecting this very question now for a few months. Here's my 2c, alongside what's already been said in the thread:

• Understand your goals. It sounds like your desire is to increase your aerobic capacity, not train for a 2K. The latter is the common metric for success (on forums), so understand the difference and be able to sort out what advice goes to which type of training (think sprinting vs long distance)
• Zone 2 is a HR based training zone. HR is not a good approximation for your exertion if you don't have a good aerobic / cardiovascular base, independent of strength or technique, as your body is not efficient at getting rid of lactic acid. Seriously consider using the RPE scale instead, you will find more data-driven results there. Here's a video describing this concept in greater detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5cMfkDMf8.
• If you're looking for a low-body-stress cardio workout on the rower, the two groups people fall into are those who do steady state at Zone 2 (HR 60-70% usually) or steady state at UT2 (a blood lactate measurement based system, basically RPE). So you can do either, just know that they don't align necessarily. In my experience my UT2 workouts, with an RPE of 3, have a HR about 15-20 BPM higher than Zone 2 despite it supposedly being the same type of workout. I personally could not do Z2 training because sitting on the erg and doing nothing puts me around 100bpm, so unless I want to pull a 2:45, a full minute slower than my 2K split, a low HR doesn't work for me. Maybe you're the same, it seems to be a body type thing.

Most of my easy days are UT2 currently in the range of 2:15 - 2:20, SPM 18, usually between 60-90 minutes. I turn on movies or youtube videos while I do it.

[iain]

Same situation being a rock climber / strength training-er and I've been disecting this very question now for a few months. Here's my 2c, alongside what's already been said in the thread:

• Understand your goals. It sounds like your desire is to increase your aerobic capacity, not train for a 2K. The latter is the common metric for success (on forums), so understand the difference and be able to sort out what advice goes to which type of training (think sprinting vs long distance)
• Zone 2 is a HR based training zone. HR is not a good approximation for your exertion if you don't have a good aerobic / cardiovascular base, independent of strength or technique, as your body is not efficient at getting rid of lactic acid. Seriously consider using the RPE scale instead, you will find more data-driven results there. Here's a video describing this concept in greater detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5cMfkDMf8.
• If you're looking for a low-body-stress cardio workout on the rower, the two groups people fall into are those who do steady state at Zone 2 (HR 60-70% usually) or steady state at UT2 (a blood lactate measurement based system, basically RPE). So you can do either, just know that they don't align necessarily. In my experience my UT2 workouts, with an RPE of 3, have a HR about 15-20 BPM higher than Zone 2 despite it supposedly being the same type of workout. I personally could not do Z2 training because sitting on the erg and doing nothing puts me around 100bpm, so unless I want to pull a 2:45, a full minute slower than my 2K split, a low HR doesn't work for me. Maybe you're the same, it seems to be a body type thing.

Most of my easy days are UT2 currently in the range of 2:15 - 2:20, SPM 18, usually between 60-90 minutes. I turn on movies or youtube videos while I do it.

I agree, most of the regular posters on this site are very fit and have been rowing for years. I believe most people can get to the position you want to be at, but for some that might take 18 months to achieve with normal life commitments. Unless you have AC then dehydration can also be an issue. That said I have no doubt that it is possible to stay in zone 2 on a rower for an hour for anyone, but that will for many mean rowing with a very weak stroke and I for one would find it very boring and doubt that the other benefits of the rower (strength gains across most muscle groups) would be achieved.

If you would prefer to row despite not being able to start in the zone you favour, there are 2 ways to achieve the necesary fitness (either will require work on perfecting technique):

1) start doing much shorter workouts and slowly increase the duration (no more than 10% per week or so) until you reach an hour a time.
2) accept that you are in a higher HR zone and allow recovery time so initially do say a row every 3 days and increase to 4 per week as you get fitter.

Personally I restart on something between the 2.

Hope you stay with the rower and let us know how you get on.