1000m breakdown

[Jerome]

Hey all,

Please help me out..

Today I tried a 2k Pb, but HDed at 1000m.
Until then everything went just fine, first 750m easy-peasy in fact. Then the hammer hit.

Unfortunately, this happened before.
1000+ is a rough spot for me.
But I don’t know how to work past it.

I’ve been working on speed intervals (8x500, 5x650) once a week. The rest consists of 3/4 endurance pieces on the rower (e.g. 10kr20) or 60m bike pieces.

To provide some numbers:
8x500/3:30 @1.42.x
10kr20 sub 40’
5k@26 sub 19’

2khd was an 1.45 attempt.

I’m guessing power endurance at higher ratings is letting me down.
But how to remedy this?

Thanks

[Tony Cook]

If you can do 8x500 at 1:42 pace then a 2k at 1:45 should be more than doable. From my study of n=1 my 2k pace is my 8x500 pace, but we are all different.
Sometimes these things become a mental block so maybe try some incremental training.
Do you do 4x1000 intervals? Try those at 1:45 as a replacement for 8x500.
Also I’d go for a 1200m at 1:45 - at the 1k point you will see you’re only 200m or 20+ strokes from home so you won’t HD. Look at that as 3x 400m pieces together - but all done at even pace. Next try 1400m etc. each time you know you can achieve what you did previously and so know that you can go a little bit further.
Of course if you fall off the erg in a sweaty, heaving, gasping mess and can’t get off the floor for 10 minutes then you’ve probably hit your max for that distance and pace and so will have to readjust.

[RWAGR]

I also always recommend doing more 2k pieces. Whether it's sub-max 2k hard efforts, 3x2k (easy-hard-easy), 4 x 2k with rests etc. It takes the "mystique" (i.e. fear) out of 2k. Yeah, it's a rough distance, but there's no magic in it.

[Elizabeth]

My mind initially went where Tony's did - the 8x500 say that the 1:45 pace was within reach - but then I saw your 5k time. If you're closer to 19:00 than 18:00, I'd expect a 2k pace more along the lines of 1:48-1:49. So your endurance seems to be dropping off, and that likely affected you.

What was your prior 2k PB? Were you trying to hit even pacing on this one, or using a different strategy?

The endurance rowing and bike pieces that are a regular part of your training, are they easy or maximal efforts? Or in between?

I suspect that you're either missing easy endurance work or longer hard work - the aforementioned 4x2k as an example of the latter.

[Sakly]

Additionally to mentioned tips, I would do a full 2k and start with 1:47-1:48 flat. Open up at 200-300m left and give it all. Next time you start with your average time of that first try, same thing, open up last 2-300m. And again and again. This will get you near to 1:45 in a few attempts and will have the advantage that you get to know your reaction in each stage of the 2k and gradually test and improve your 2k strategy.

[Jerome]

Based on the 500s, just like Tony, I also felt/feel dat 1.45 should be within reach. However, I haven’t been able to do it yet.

I’m sure part of it is getting used to it and working up to the distance, just like Tony and Sascha suggest. I’ve done a couple of 4’s 1.44.0 no problem. So partway there. But I’ve also crashed on a 1500, oddly enough.

But good point, Elizabeth.
My fastest 2k lately has been 1.48.
However, that was a spur of the moment, hop on and see how it goes effort. So definitely not the fastest I could do. It surely felt submax.

My 5k max is in the 18.50s. I read somewhere that for a 2k it should be in the 18.30s. However, that is miles out of reach. Furthermore, over the years I haven’t been able to really better my 5k time. 2k-3k in I can indeed feel my power/endurance drop off sharply.

I’ve tried a mix of easy and hard distance pieces, but that don’t seem to be the cure. Easy miles don’t seem to transfer (though admittedly I’ve not hit megavolumes) as my stroke weakens and moderate to hard 10ks are difficult to sustain multiple times a week. I’ve also tried hitting it from the other end, with 5x1k/5’ (or similar), but then end up stuck at 1.48, without any real improvement after a while. And I notice that it is taxing my recovery.

All in all, consider me confused.
Would sessions like 4x2k make a difference?

[p_b82]

When you HD'd what was the reason behind it?

As in - was it your head saying "I can't keep this up so I'll stop" or your legs running out of juice and your split dropping or HR/breathing off the scale?

I'm no-where near your pace, but I found doing hard 5k's at an adjusted 2k pace, meant that I was able to push through all the above on the 2k, knowing that I can take myself through that pain cave as it's half the time....

My doubts always creep in 50-75% the time/distance on a pb attempt.

My PB's have also come when I've just sat there and thought "why not have a go" rather than aiming for it specifically.

[Sakly]

When I did my very first 2k I reached just sub 7 at a pace of 1:44.5 and I had a 5k of 18:29 and 10k of 37:48 at this point of time - only for reference (last year Jan/Feb).
It seems that you lack of base cardiac output and then stall at energy levels. Short term all is working, but after only short power output you drop.
Would be interested in your 5k/10k not rate restricted. Your given rates are very low for that distances, so clearly not all out. And what is your typical monthly meters? How many base steady state sessions and how much intervals/hard sessions?

[Jerome]

Exactly, Sascha. Probably a disbalance in energy systems.
My average is typically 4( up to 5) hours a week on the erg, bike and rower mixed. One interval workout a week. Plus some heavy bag workouts.

As I said, no mega meters, but somehow my cardio output feels lacking compared to training effort over time.

My fastest 10k was 39.18 IIRC, at 24spm
18.50 K5 at 27 or 28.

Did a 3.18 1k @29, once and a long time ago.

Hm 1.33, HR capped at 140ish, not sure about spm.

[Jerome]

When you HD'd what was the reason behind it?

As in - was it your head saying "I can't keep this up so I'll stop" or your legs running out of juice and your split dropping or HR/breathing off the scale?

I'm no-where near your pace, but I found doing hard 5k's at an adjusted 2k pace, meant that I was able to push through all the above on the 2k, knowing that I can take myself through that pain cave as it's half the time....

My doubts always creep in 50-75% the time/distance on a pb attempt.

My PB's have also come when I've just sat there and thought "why not have a go" rather than aiming for it specifically.

Good question. Probably feeling the power drop off (too) sharply midway, after which the internal governor just resigns. It’s an mental-physical interaction thing, I think.

[Sakly]

My average is typically 4( up to 5) hours a week on the erg, bike and rower mixed. One interval workout a week. Plus some heavy bag workouts.

Not sure if this is the best approach to get good at rowing.
If you want to get better at something, you have to do it regularly with different intensities. Coming from 3-5 gym bodyweight sessions/week I already started at a good level of strength, but had much gains from 3-4 steady state sessions (summed up to ~4h) on the rower additional to 3 gym sessions per week, which typically included very hard intervals or circle trainings (improve vo2max).
So not sure if 4h split on 3 different types of equipment is sufficient, as erg and bike are using much different muscles and create much different stimulus.

As I said, no mega meters, but somehow my cardio output feels lacking compared to training effort over time.

As you are training unspecific and mixed, the outcome is low.

My fastest 10k was 39.18 IIRC, at 24spm
18.50 K5 at 27 or 28.

Did a 3.18 1k @29, once and a long time ago.

Hm 1.33, HR capped at 140ish, not sure about spm.

Your given times show a stroke power index of ~8.7W/min, except the 1k with >12W/min. Short time high power output is ok, as we already know
Now you need to work on higher stroke power during longer distances, so you can apply it in a 2k as well. Sub 7 needs ~300W and a rating of 30 in a 2k seems to be sustainable for most people. At an spi of 10W/min you would get this. So I would try to match this spi in your steady states at a rate of ~20, so 200W - 2:00/500. And I would skip erg and bike and move all these sessions to the rower to get the specific adaptations.

[Elizabeth]

I’ve tried a mix of easy and hard distance pieces, but that don’t seem to be the cure. Easy miles don’t seem to transfer (though admittedly I’ve not hit megavolumes) as my stroke weakens and moderate to hard 10ks are difficult to sustain multiple times a week. I’ve also tried hitting it from the other end, with 5x1k/5’ (or similar), but then end up stuck at 1.48, without any real improvement after a while. And I notice that it is taxing my recovery.

All in all, consider me confused.
Would sessions like 4x2k make a difference?

How long have you stuck with an approach that includes easy meters? It's a long game approach, but works over time. My easy watt/stroke is weaker than some here would recommend, but it works for me, and has worked for friends. I take my hard stuff hard. Sample longer sessions to work in could include things like 4x2000, 5x1500, 3000-2500-2000, 2000-1500-1000-500, 4x8:00, 5x5:00.

Playing around with pacing and rates really helped me with the mental aspects of a hard 2k. It takes some of that daunting feeling out of it, and got me used to how I would feel at different times during the piece. Examples of this: rate restricted at r24; rate caps for each 500m of 26-28-30-open; first and last 500 at goal pace and middle 1k at a 5k pace.

Also, I find that easy work has good carry-over between sports, whereas the hard work doesn't for me. The issue with the hard work is more muscular than heart/lungs. This week's easy meters have been all over the place for me: on the water, RowErg, BikeErg, outdoor cycling, running, hiking. Keeps it fun.

[jamesg]

But how to remedy this?

Flat pace is fastest, but needs a lot of experience to know what that pace is.

Try the French protocol for pace and plan: do a hard 500m, the day before; then race at 92, 88, 88 and 91% of test pace in the four 500s. On the startline, it's nice to have a plan and have done a good warmup.

If test pace is 1:40 = 100s,
88% is 100/0.88 = 113.6s, 1:53.6.
92% is 108.7s, 1:48.7

The key point is cool it at or before 500. You may start thinking wow this is easy, but it soon won't.

These speed %s work out at about 72% of 500m test Watts.

[Jerome]

I’ve tried a mix of easy and hard distance pieces, but that don’t seem to be the cure. Easy miles don’t seem to transfer (though admittedly I’ve not hit megavolumes) as my stroke weakens and moderate to hard 10ks are difficult to sustain multiple times a week. I’ve also tried hitting it from the other end, with 5x1k/5’ (or similar), but then end up stuck at 1.48, without any real improvement after a while. And I notice that it is taxing my recovery.

All in all, consider me confused.
Would sessions like 4x2k make a difference?

How long have you stuck with an approach that includes easy meters? It's a long game approach, but works over time. My easy watt/stroke is weaker than some here would recommend, but it works for me, and has worked for friends. I take my hard stuff hard. Sample longer sessions to work in could include things like 4x2000, 5x1500, 3000-2500-2000, 2000-1500-1000-500, 4x8:00, 5x5:00.

Playing around with pacing and rates really helped me with the mental aspects of a hard 2k. It takes some of that daunting feeling out of it, and got me used to how I would feel at different times during the piece. Examples of this: rate restricted at r24; rate caps for each 500m of 26-28-30-open; first and last 500 at goal pace and middle 1k at a 5k pace.

Also, I find that easy work has good carry-over between sports, whereas the hard work doesn't for me. The issue with the hard work is more muscular than heart/lungs. This week's easy meters have been all over the place for me: on the water, RowErg, BikeErg, outdoor cycling, running, hiking. Keeps it fun.

I’ve played around with longer and shorter periods. Very strict, once or twice about a three month period, I think.
Less strict, 12 to 18 months, mostly due to working around an injury. My basic conditioning felt fine, but the lack of intensity seriously limited my peak performance after that.


Now I’m trying to mix it up.
I’m sure Sascha is right and that focusing on rowing is best for improvement in that area. However, I like the idea of all-round/carry over fitness, which is more important to me. That, and maintaining my mental health, was the main reason for mixing it up with the bike erg.

What pace/intensity guidelines do you use, Elizabeth?

I recently started with intentionally slowing even further down, with a heart rate in the low 130s. This seems to correspond with a self selected / by feel easy pace for me and should be ballpark 70% mHR.
Not sure however if this is too low, however.

[Dangerscouse]

I recently started with intentionally slowing even further down, with a heart rate in the low 130s. This seems to correspond with a self selected / by feel easy pace for me and should be ballpark 70% mHR.
Not sure however if this is too low, however.

Imo, that can be a good pace BUT you also have to make sure that you're working harder in the shorter sharper sessions. If you go easier than you also must compensate with going harder. It's also important that you find what works best for you as some people thrive off circa 70% whilst others need closer to 80%.

I'm thinking that another big part of your issue is the psychology of erging. If you got to 750m and it still felt easy, but HDed, at 1k, something has probably gone drastically wrong with your mindset. The only time I have had something similar is in a race, and it was massively distorted by adrenaline.

Do you have any coping strategies or did you just let your bad inner chimp (voice) convince you that you needed to HD?