Help with my Rowing Pace and SPM

[glass5mt]

Hello all,

I am fairly new to Rowing indoors. Started last march and have been able to correctly row nowadays. Had no coaching. Literally had to figure things out after reading this forum and watching how-to videos on youtube. I've watch Training tall and darkhorse channels mostly. Also watch Casie Neimann's videos.

The graph below is my ideal workout where I stay in UT2 and try to have a consistent pace of 3 minutes. Not here to compete or anything but would like to get some pointers on my graph if I am doing anything wrong here.

Male 39
166lbs 5'7
Drag factor 120

[iain]

Obviously we don't know everything about you such as any mobility or health issues so the comments may not be correct, so if this applies to you, please take it into account when considering my comments.

I would say that you need to look again at your technique. You are not generating the work per stroke that I would expect from someone of your age and size and this is most often due to not transferring the power that you do generate to the flywheel and therefore have it counting towards your C2 pace. I realise that you are looking to stay in UT2. Not sure how you determined this as it requires a knowledge of your HRmax, if you have used an aged based formula this could be a long way out and therefore you could be underestimating the appropriate heart rate. I would also say that basing this on heart rate reserve gives a better estimate, but I am not a fan of very low rate training so am not best placed to discuss that. I would say that a 2k is very short for UT2. For significant benefits I would say >30 min sessions are required at these low effort levels. Most find it easier to start with more intense rowing on shorter intervals until their fitness improves and they get more used to the rower.

Once you have confirmed your technique, I would try and maintain atleast 2:30 pace and try and extend the length of these rows until you are doing >10 min at these before worrying about HR. At the moment you are generating about 130J of work per stroke. I had done little rowing for 18 months and am fairly weak, but was producing 400J when I started back as a 53 year old lightweight, 3 months on I am typically generating 450J/stroke. 2:30 at 24SPM would be 260J per stroke so a very achievable amount. I would say that so long as you don't over extend your stroke, then rowing at lower rates (really slowing the pace up the slide) with greater force in the stroke is the way to go. Few of us exceed 24SPM in the majority of our workouts, and 18 or 20SPM is more typical for lower intensity workouts. This allows the recovery from a powerful drive. The drive should feel like a squat even at low intensity, the intensity being largely determined by how often you drive than the force used during the drive. In this way rowing is very different from more continuous exercises like cycling and running. The recovery after the drive will initially feel ridiculously slow crawling up the slide, but that is what gives your body the time to get ready for the next powerful stroke. Energy expended going back up the slide doesn't increase the C2 pace and so is wasted!

Hope this helps

Iain

[jamesg]

Just now I tried to simulate your results. I got the same numbers pulling a stroke of length 80cm at 150N (15kg) handle force, rating 27 spm. Data shown in Ergdata. Not sure that this power (50W) can have any effect on fitness; but we all started somewhere and can only explore our possibilities.

Try longer and harder strokes, say 100cm length and 200N force, rate 23. This would equate to:
1 x 200 x 23 / 60 = 75W. You will need to engage your legs, pushing harder with a longer stroke, and will likely see higher HR.

For reference, if you climb a flight of stairs (3m height) in 20 seconds, with all up weight say 75kg, your power output, from legs alone, would be 3x75g/20 = 110W, which is roughly double your erg power, and all done by the legs.

This may be a key point for you: despite what we may think we see, rowing is a leg sport, since that's where the big muscle is, in hips and thighs; producing 80-90% of the total work done. The amount of work they can do, even though I usually stop well short of sudden death, always amazes me.

C2's founders were oarsmen and are very good at making us work hard. They know very well how we can best use their machines, and show it here:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[p_b82]

I'm not sure what your pace is for 2k TT or doing a 10K row - but at your age, unless you have a very high resting HR or other health conditions, I think that 120 bpm for UT2 is very likely too slow.
For context my max observed HR is 189 and resting ~60bpm now (it's around 70 sat around at my desk typically) - which puts me up to 150bpm for UT2 (~140bpm average for the workout).

I'd also agree with the other two comments, that dropping the stroke rate and using more force would probably be a benefit for you.

I'll add that the research suggests that UT2 sessions ought to be 45-90mins long for optimal gains; so more like a 10k for you at your current pace than a 2k.

I don't know if you do other training as well - but if like me you don't do anything other than row a few times a week, I'd be more inclined to suggest rowing a bit harder and ignore trying to keep your Hr down - and if possible increasing the duration/distance your row in each session.

[Tsnor]

Hello all,

I am fairly new to Rowing indoors. Started last march and have been able to correctly row nowadays. Had no coaching. Literally had to figure things out after reading this forum and watching how-to videos on youtube. I've watch Training tall and darkhorse channels mostly. Also watch Casie Neimann's videos.

The graph below is my ideal workout where I stay in UT2 and try to have a consistent pace of 3 minutes. Not here to compete or anything but would like to get some pointers on my graph if I am doing anything wrong here.

Looks fine to me. You are a year into rowing so likely have built up enough skill and muscles to press forward.

Your UT2 pace is unexpectedly slow. How did you choose this pace ? Most likely causes of slow UT2 are (1) needing technique work or (2) choosing to go slower than the high end of UT2. If you are working hard to do UT2 at 3:00 per 500m then revisit the basic rowing guidance from your youtube channels, something is wrong. You picked good youtube channels to watch. If you are intentionally going slow that's fine.

Progressive overload makes you stronger. Do gradually increase BOTH rowing load and rowing duration. I suggest you pick some workouts where you increase time at current load, and some workouts where you increase load for the current time. Both more load and more time will make you stronger.

If you want to get stronger faster there are also some plans (BPP for example) that will drive you to do a lot more.

[mitchel674]

I'm probably the weakest rower on this site, but even my steady state easy pieces don't look like this. My 60 year old wife rows 1-2 times/week and has a steady state pace of 2:40 for an hour.

At 39 years old, you should have a steady state pace likely under 2:30. I suspect something is technically wrong with your stroke and you are leaking power. You've watched videos, but have you recorded your own stroke? Try posting one here for some gentle, constructive criticism.

[imaginarySoul]

OP and i have almost the same exact stats which is a bit concerning now.
I tried to post something earlier asking for guidance but has not gone through approval yet. I want to upload a video tomorrow on my form as i must be doing something(s) wrong for sure!

[iain]

OP and i have almost the same exact stats which is a bit concerning now.
I tried to post something earlier asking for guidance but has not gone through approval yet. I want to upload a video tomorrow on my form as i must be doing something(s) wrong for sure!

A video would be great and has historically helped many.

[glass5mt]

Just now I tried to simulate your results. I got the same numbers pulling a stroke of length 80cm at 150N (15kg) handle force, rating 27 spm. Data shown in Ergdata. Not sure that this power (50W) can have any effect on fitness; but we all started somewhere and can only explore our possibilities.

Try longer and harder strokes, say 100cm length and 200N force, rate 23. This would equate to:
1 x 200 x 23 / 60 = 75W. You will need to engage your legs, pushing harder with a longer stroke, and will likely see higher HR.

For reference, if you climb a flight of stairs (3m height) in 20 seconds, with all up weight say 75kg, your power output, from legs alone, would be 3x75g/20 = 110W, which is roughly double your erg power, and all done by the legs.

This may be a key point for you: despite what we may think we see, rowing is a leg sport, since that's where the big muscle is, in hips and thighs; producing 80-90% of the total work done. The amount of work they can do, even though I usually stop well short of sudden death, always amazes me.

C2's founders were oarsmen and are very good at making us work hard. They know very well how we can best use their machines, and show it here:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Thanks for the great suggestion. Throughout the week, I worked on my form and technique as you mentioned working from hips and thighs. Got a decent raise in my power and feel more connected to the machine. My stats are below. Although I've tried keeping a steady pace but for someone reason...I keep drifting into a faster SPM and it wears me out. Maybe old habits lingering from my time doing body building row workouts.

Still not able to go under 2:30 (2k) split.

Splits
Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
10:20.1 2,000m 2:35.0 94 623 26 146
2:40.4 500m 2:40.4 85 591 23 136
2:30.0 500m 2:30.0 104 656 28 148
2:32.9 500m 2:32.9 98 636 28 151
2:36.8 500m 2:36.8 91 612 28 15

[jamesg]

I keep drifting into a faster SPM
166lbs 5'7
10:20.1 2,000m 2:35.0 94 623 26 146

Well done, 100W is a milestone.

Given your high ratings (26-28) it seems probable you are using a short stroke. See the C2 technique pages. A longer stroke at lower ratings may make things easier by fully engaging the legs.

Legs are strong, so if used put a heavy load on our CV system. This is what produces fitness, in due time. Your high HR shows this happening.

[p_b82]

congrats on the 2K PB

[glass5mt]

I keep drifting into a faster SPM
166lbs 5'7
10:20.1 2,000m 2:35.0 94 623 26 146

Well done, 100W is a milestone.

Given your high ratings (26-28) it seems probable you are using a short stroke. See the C2 technique pages. A longer stroke at lower ratings may make things easier by fully engaging the legs.

Legs are strong, so if used put a heavy load on our CV system. This is what produces fitness, in due time. Your high HR shows this happening.

Thanks for all the pointers. I couldn't have accomplished it without help from people here. Definitely feel more connected to the rower now.

I'm going to work on my technique more...ur right I do not extend my legs fully thus creating a shorter stroke.

[glass5mt]

congrats on the 2K PB

Thanks!