Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

[AlexFergus]

Another update.

Last months video is up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MywYI57V8u0
This was my failed 500m attempt. all covered in the video.

My knee (tendonitis) is still not quite 100% I did some 100kg squats last week and it went well, so will build on that this week.

I also did a 300m sprint last week and equaled the New Zealand record - 44.1
I'm confident I can better that so I may have another crack at it soon.

one thing I am struggling with is my breathing - Lets say I'm doing a 500m piece, at about 500m I find myself gasping for air, almost like I can't breath. Not your usual 'shoot I'm buggered' gasping for air, but a 'I can't remember how to breath' feeling. it's horrible. I then try and fix it consciously - but that makes things worst.

It's only started happening since I got sick. it's bizare and really frustrating. I've found a breathing coach who has worked with rowers before, so I hope to meet with him sometime soon (he is based a few hours drive from me).

I'll see how training goes this month - whether I'll do another 500m attempt or maybe redo the 300m I'm not sure yet. It will depend on how my knee is feeling, if I'm still having these breathing issues, and how my training has progressed this month.

[AlexFergus]

Updating the thread.

May video with my 300m is up - https://youtu.be/BR9M72T8QRQ

And I did another 500m (first time since that failed post illness row). And shaved 0.8 seconds off my PB. New PB is now 1:16.8
So thats good. 2.5 seconds to go (to match the NZ open record).

This new row was 773watts. Goal is 853w. So yeah still a loooong way to go when you look at it that way. But a 0.8 second improvement is good, I just wanted to get another PB as my confidence was shaken a bit!

For those that are interested, you can see my 500m row details here - https://log.concept2.com/profile/140341/log/64650515

Knee is still not 100% but I felt strong in this row. And actually felt pretty good afterwards - usually I'm am absolute wreck for 20mins after the row (I'd hate to do a 2000m!) so maybe my fitness is improving (or I didn't push myself hard enough )

Anyway the next goal is a 800w 500m - which is a 1:15.9 row. Thats going to be a big step up. I'll retest my 100m at the end of August ( 2months from now). Next month I'll do another 300m and try and get the NZ record to myself. I reckon I need a 950watt or faster 300m to achieve my 850w 500m row. Which is a 43second 300m.

I'll keep chipping away at everything, Any progress is good progress!

[shizzle]

Amazing to see your progress.
You have to be optimistic, less than 10% increase in power needed

Incredible numbers

[max_ratcliffe]

I always enjoy reading your updates. I hadn't clocked until now that you're only 5'10". Makes your achievements all the more remarkable.

[Dangerscouse]

Updating the thread.

May video with my 300m is up - https://youtu.be/BR9M72T8QRQ

And I did another 500m (first time since that failed post illness row). And shaved 0.8 seconds off my PB. New PB is now 1:16.8
So thats good. 2.5 seconds to go (to match the NZ open record).

This new row was 773watts. Goal is 853w. So yeah still a loooong way to go when you look at it that way. But a 0.8 second improvement is good, I just wanted to get another PB as my confidence was shaken a bit!

For those that are interested, you can see my 500m row details here - https://log.concept2.com/profile/140341/log/64650515

Knee is still not 100% but I felt strong in this row. And actually felt pretty good afterwards - usually I'm am absolute wreck for 20mins after the row (I'd hate to do a 2000m!) so maybe my fitness is improving (or I didn't push myself hard enough )

Anyway the next goal is a 800w 500m - which is a 1:15.9 row. Thats going to be a big step up. I'll retest my 100m at the end of August ( 2months from now). Next month I'll do another 300m and try and get the NZ record to myself. I reckon I need a 950watt or faster 300m to achieve my 850w 500m row. Which is a 43second 300m.

I'll keep chipping away at everything, Any progress is good progress!

0.8 seconds is a huge amount when you're getting down to the results that you're getting.

I can assure a 2k at circa 1:40 isn't comparable to a 1:16 500m. Neither are in any way easy, but they definitely take a different toll on you.

[AlexFergus]

Thanks for the support and encouragement guys.
Yeah I'm a short ass when it comes to rowing, but years of erging as junior + some serious lower body strength + the wisdom of 15 years in gyms/training is giving me a much needed edge.

Still a long way to go before I hit my target - I need an extra 75watts over the 500m. But other than a freak injury, I think with time and some hard sessions in the gym it's achievable.

I'm also now starting to bring in some of those 1% hacks - i.e. experimenting with some supplements, caffeine, pre-workouts (I'm actually in talks about a sponsorship deal with a really good supplement company that I have been a fan of for years). I just got my hands on a powerbreathe device (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength), and some blood flow restriction devices (Kaatsu).
Plus I need to get some solid heel shoes (currently rowing in a thick/soft heel chuck taylor style shoe), I'm sure that will help squeeze out a few extra watts into the machine.

I wanted to save all these '1% hacks' until I got within a second or two from the record.

[faach1]

Impressive progress, keep it up!

[Dangerscouse]

I just got my hands on a powerbreathe device (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength), and some blood flow restriction devices (Kaatsu).
Plus I need to get some solid heel shoes (currently rowing in a thick/soft heel chuck taylor style shoe), I'm sure that will help squeeze out a few extra watts into the machine.

I've just read a book called Breath by James Nestor, that is worth looking at. Some interesting breathing techniques and exercises that may help with CO tolerance.

I use Nike Metcons, but Reebok Nanos, and powerlifting shoes are very popular. Sometimes the psychological boost also adds to the 1%.

[Tsnor]

I just got my hands on a powerbreathe device (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength), and some blood flow restriction devices (Kaatsu).
Plus I need to get some solid heel shoes (currently rowing in a thick/soft heel chuck taylor style shoe), I'm sure that will help squeeze out a few extra watts into the machine.

I've just read a book called Breath by James Nestor, that is worth looking at. Some interesting breathing techniques and exercises that may help with CO tolerance.

I use Nike Metcons, but Reebok Nanos, and powerlifting shoes are very popular. Sometimes the psychological boost also adds to the 1%.

For a 500M rowing sprint your aerobic / anaerobic wattage contribution is very roughly in the 40% aerobic / 60% anaerobic range (like a 400m or 800M running sprint https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15966348/ ), so to gain those last few hundred watts you can either bring up your aerobic or anaerobic or both. If your aerobic is relatively weak then maybe focus there will give you best return on effort. Sometimes more aerobic work is free because you do not have any more recovery room to do more anaerobic work, so it's aerobic or nothing. (although building aerobic capacity is slow work vs anaerobic).

Good luck with the breathe work " (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength)". Couple of people tried it, no value seen, maybe you will see some. Science seems sketchy. Some older threads on this. Typical counter argument "The lungs are over-engineered to accomplish the job that we ask them to do," said Dr. Jonathan P. Parsons, a professor of internal medicine, associate director of Clinical Services, and director of the Division of Pulmonary, Allergy, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine at the OSU Asthma Center at The Ohio State University. "In healthy people without chronic lung disease, even at maximum exercise intensity, we only use 70 percent of the possible lung capacity." https://www.livescience.com/52250-lung.html Very few mammals have any where near the lung overcapacity of humans. There is a fancy scientific word (starts with co--- something) that describes systems that grow together. As you increase your ability to consume oxygen you get more lung intake for free, lungs are not the limiting factor. If you do want to build up lung capacity high elevation works. A few mins/day of lung muscle work does not seem to do it.

Re shoes. Pure hard sole like bike shoes may not be best for rowing. You are likely getting a very good "bounce" energy return at the catch. If you are not, then try it. You should be able to convert forward motion towards the flywheel into energy stored in your tendons and released as you push on the next drive. This technique is used on the water where the complication is getting everyone to bounce at the same time. Post if you want references from USROWING. Very likely you already are exploiting this technique. When you go to a very hard sole shoe it could effect this bounce. Runners with new optimized "springy" running soles win races "Both independent and Nike-sponsored studies have confirmed that the shoes increase athletes' energetic efficiency by 4% or more, which yields significant dividends in marathon-length distances. The shoes' foam and carbon-fiber sole is designed to ensure that less energy is lost in each footfall." ... "running shoes store and release energy to propel us forward. The midsole acts like a spring, compressing when a runner lands, storing the energy from that foot strike, and expanding again to return that stored energy into the ground to push them forward. Not all of that stored energy gets returned with each footfall, though — some dissipates as heat. But the Vaporfly's design minimizes that of lost energy, giving the runner more bang for the buck. " https://www.businessinsider.com/why-nik ... er-2019-11 A pure hard sole shoe is not going to help with your spring loading.

[btlifter]

I just got my hands on a powerbreathe device (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength), and some blood flow restriction devices (Kaatsu).
Plus I need to get some solid heel shoes (currently rowing in a thick/soft heel chuck taylor style shoe), I'm sure that will help squeeze out a few extra watts into the machine.

I've just read a book called Breath by James Nestor, that is worth looking at. Some interesting breathing techniques and exercises that may help with CO tolerance.

I use Nike Metcons, but Reebok Nanos, and powerlifting shoes are very popular. Sometimes the psychological boost also adds to the 1%.

For a 500M rowing sprint your aerobic / anaerobic wattage contribution is very roughly in the 40% aerobic / 60% anaerobic range (like a 400m or 800M running sprint https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15966348/ ), so to gain those last few hundred watts you can either bring up your aerobic or anaerobic or both. If your aerobic is relatively weak then maybe focus there will give you best return on effort. Sometimes more aerobic work is free because you do not have any more recovery room to do more anaerobic work, so it's aerobic or nothing. (although building aerobic capacity is slow work vs anaerobic).

Good luck with the breathe work " (boost lung capacity/diaphragm strength)". Couple of people tried it, no value seen, maybe you will see some. Science seems sketchy. Some older threads on this. Typical counter argument "The lungs are over-engineered to accomplish the job that we ask them to do," said Dr. Jonathan P. Parsons, a professor of internal medicine, associate director of Clinical Services, and director of the Division of Pulmonary, Allergy, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine at the OSU Asthma Center at The Ohio State University. "In healthy people without chronic lung disease, even at maximum exercise intensity, we only use 70 percent of the possible lung capacity." https://www.livescience.com/52250-lung.html Very few mammals have any where near the lung overcapacity of humans. There is a fancy scientific word (starts with co--- something) that describes systems that grow together. As you increase your ability to consume oxygen you get more lung intake for free, lungs are not the limiting factor. If you do want to build up lung capacity high elevation works. A few mins/day of lung muscle work does not seem to do it.

Re shoes. Pure hard sole like bike shoes may not be best for rowing. You are likely getting a very good "bounce" energy return at the catch. If you are not, then try it. You should be able to convert forward motion towards the flywheel into energy stored in your tendons and released as you push on the next drive. This technique is used on the water where the complication is getting everyone to bounce at the same time. Post if you want references from USROWING. Very likely you already are exploiting this technique. When you go to a very hard sole shoe it could effect this bounce. Runners with new optimized "springy" running soles win races "Both independent and Nike-sponsored studies have confirmed that the shoes increase athletes' energetic efficiency by 4% or more, which yields significant dividends in marathon-length distances. The shoes' foam and carbon-fiber sole is designed to ensure that less energy is lost in each footfall." ... "running shoes store and release energy to propel us forward. The midsole acts like a spring, compressing when a runner lands, storing the energy from that foot strike, and expanding again to return that stored energy into the ground to push them forward. Not all of that stored energy gets returned with each footfall, though — some dissipates as heat. But the Vaporfly's design minimizes that of lost energy, giving the runner more bang for the buck. " https://www.businessinsider.com/why-nik ... er-2019-11 A pure hard sole shoe is not going to help with your spring loading.

Finally I get to disagree with Tsnor; this is a rare day indeed!

I certainly agree re: energy systems and the skepticism re: various 02/lung capacity products.
(I use breathwork as a mindfulness teacher. I am not dismissive towards the health benefits of focusing on breath In general, just the performance benefits)

But I strongly disagree re: footwear. I would argue that the drive on an erg has a lot more in common with a squat, deadlift, or clean, than it does a running stride. As such, a firmer sole will be optimal. Further, even In running shoes, I believe it's the firm carbon foot plate - not the foam - that provides the "spring".

[btlifter]

As an aside, I looked at your 500m logbook entry Alex,

Everybody is different, but I would guess that if you allowed yourself to be 1-2 splits slower over the first 100 that it would pay dividends over the last 200.

[aussie nick]

Updating the thread.

May video with my 300m is up - https://youtu.be/BR9M72T8QRQ

And I did another 500m (first time since that failed post illness row). And shaved 0.8 seconds off my PB. New PB is now 1:16.8
So thats good. 2.5 seconds to go (to match the NZ open record).

This new row was 773watts. Goal is 853w. So yeah still a loooong way to go when you look at it that way. But a 0.8 second improvement is good, I just wanted to get another PB as my confidence was shaken a bit!

For those that are interested, you can see my 500m row details here - https://log.concept2.com/profile/140341/log/64650515

Knee is still not 100% but I felt strong in this row. And actually felt pretty good afterwards - usually I'm am absolute wreck for 20mins after the row (I'd hate to do a 2000m!) so maybe my fitness is improving (or I didn't push myself hard enough )

Anyway the next goal is a 800w 500m - which is a 1:15.9 row. Thats going to be a big step up. I'll retest my 100m at the end of August ( 2months from now). Next month I'll do another 300m and try and get the NZ record to myself. I reckon I need a 950watt or faster 300m to achieve my 850w 500m row. Which is a 43second 300m.

I'll keep chipping away at everything, Any progress is good progress!

I missed the PR - congratulations Alex...great progress mate. Keep it up!

[Tsnor]

But I strongly disagree re: footwear. I would argue that the drive on an erg has a lot more in common with a squat, deadlift, or clean, than it does a running stride. As such, a firmer sole will be optimal. Further, even In running shoes, I believe it's the firm carbon foot plate - not the foam - that provides the "spring".

Grin. Trying to find where we disagree.

Do you agree that when erg'ing you can store some (not all) of the energy from moving forward towards the flywheel in your tendons/muscles, and then release that energy on the drive (similar to a jump where moving down stores energy that you can use when you jump up)? Is there any "bounce" stored energy with a squat? There usually is bounce stored energy with erg leg drive -- just add a small pause at the drive to kill the bounce and watch your split.) Here is an OTW analysis of the value of bouncing / trampoline effect. https://youtu.be/-xTYWaSlh9I?t=1019 (video at 16:59, link should take you there) This was a presentation at USRowings 2022 coaches conference.

I know little about lifting shoes. Is this description accurate? "Weightlifting shoes generally employ an inflexible, noncompressible sole; rigid bottom; and a heel elevated typically by 2.5 cm.1,2 The design is to provide the weightlifter with a good base from which to lift, some protection for the lumbar spine, and improved lifting posture.: https://lermagazine.com/article/do-spec ... %20posture.

Specifically for running shoes, the ultimate was the NIKE Vaporfly. As quoted above "The midsole acts like a spring, compressing when a runner lands, storing the energy from that foot strike, and expanding again to return that stored energy into the ground to push them forward." The midsole is not a "firm carbon foot plate" like is used to transfer power with zero flex in cycling shoes, or the "inflexible, noncompressible sole; rigid bottom" listed above for lifting shoes.

Here is an analysis of where the Nike Vaporfly excelled https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a2648 ... cent-work/

it turns out the Vaporfly’s energy savings come from three things. First, runners’ ankle mechanics improve. This is likely thanks to the curved carbon-fiber plate that runs throughout the midsole from heel to toe; the researchers believe that the plate, in a sense, stabilizes your ankle and reduces your “rotational force”—or the work your calves would normally have to do.

Second, runners lose less energy by the plate keeping their toes straight, because yes, your toes work and waste energy when you are running by flexing. And third, the ZoomX foam in the midsole has two unique properties: an unusual degree of compliance (it squishes when your foot lands) and an unusual degree of resilience (it springs back to its original shape, returning most of the energy your foot applied when you landed). In fact, the shoe has 80 percent energy return in the heel, which is the highest we’ve ever measured in our Runner’s World shoe lab.

[JaapvanE]

the ZoomX foam in the midsole has two unique properties: an unusual degree of compliance (it squishes when your foot lands) and an unusual degree of resilience (it springs back to its original shape, returning most of the energy your foot applied when you landed). In fact, the shoe has 80 percent energy return in the heel, which is the highest we’ve ever measured in our Runner’s World shoe lab.

But isn't that the issue? Running has quite a different force distribution than rowing. Even more important, a runner always moves forward, where a rower continously changes direction.

In running, you want to dampen the landing and you return the energy when you remove the body weight from the shoe (i.e. when you're past the foot), giving you a small push at the end.

When looking at the rowing stroke, that would be counterproductive. In the recovery there is a neutral to negative force on the footplates, thus the sole would be uncompressed. At the catch, the rower changes direction. This is when most power is generated by the rower, there is a huge force on the footplates and the shoes would compress. This would reduce the power generated at the catch, potentially lengthening the ineffective period of the catch when the rower moves slower than the flywheel. The energy is indeed stored in the soles, but it is returned at the release, where the rower is moving slow and wants to move in the opposite direction as soon as possible.

So in my opinion, unless you have issues with your joints, the soles should be as thin as possible. A more visual explanation by a former member of team GB: https://youtu.be/ZfeM2Xu6jt4

[Tsnor]

the ZoomX foam in the midsole has two unique properties: an unusual degree of compliance (it squishes when your foot lands) and an unusual degree of resilience (it springs back to its original shape, returning most of the energy your foot applied when you landed). In fact, the shoe has 80 percent energy return in the heel, which is the highest we’ve ever measured in our Runner’s World shoe lab.

But isn't that the issue? Running has quite a different force distribution than rowing. Even more important, a runner always moves forward, where a rower continously changes direction.

In running, you want to dampen the landing and you return the energy when you remove the body weight from the shoe (i.e. when you're past the foot), giving you a small push at the end.

When looking at the rowing stroke, that would be counterproductive. In the recovery there is a neutral to negative force on the footplates, thus the sole would be uncompressed. At the catch, the rower changes direction. This is when most power is generated by the rower, there is a huge force on the footplates and the shoes would compress. This would reduce the power generated at the catch, potentially lengthening the ineffective period of the catch when the rower moves slower than the flywheel. The energy is indeed stored in the soles, but it is returned at the release, where the rower is moving slow and wants to move in the opposite direction as soon as possible.

So in my opinion, unless you have issues with your joints, the soles should be as thin as possible. A more visual explanation by a former member of team GB: https://youtu.be/ZfeM2Xu6jt4

Not sure we are connecting correctly. I couldn't find any study of power transfer with lifting shoes so we are in the "argue from similar things, then argue how similar things really are" stage. I hope someone tries lifting shoes vs sneakers and sees what difference they make. I did take a look at a few 100m and 500m record videos. There is a chance that one of them (Brian Shaw) might have been wearing older high top lifting shoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl0Zt-kZys Rest were sneakers. NET: no certainty here either way.

Comments on your specific post. Please take positively - comments/questions are to find out what I'm missing.

There is zero power stored at the catch that is returned seconds later at the release. I don't see any mechanism where "The energy is indeed stored in the soles, but it is returned at the release" could be true.

Do you agree that jumping up and down that some of the power from the landing goes into compressing the shoe midsole, leg tendons, leg muscles, etc. and is returned on the subsequent jump up? If not try jumping from a motionless stance vs crouching down to load your legs and jumping. See how critical the timing is of crouching down then jumping up - get it wrong and it's like jumping out of sync on a trampoline.

The discussion above is mainly about the amount of power stored by the shoe, leg tendons, muscles as a rower stops his/her body mass at the catch. That this power is immediately returned in the first part of the drive as a spike in measured body mass acceleration. If you believe, like the USROWING video, that there is power stored here then a lifting shoe with no flex might effect the amount of power that gets returned. (There might also be a question about the raised heel of a lifting show changing the foot angle relative to the stretcher, and whether that is good or not.)

"This would reduce the power generated at the catch, potentially lengthening the ineffective period of the catch when the rower moves slower than the flywheel. " Not sure why you believe this. Spring loading of muscles and tendons clearly helps. Why would spring loading of the shoe (demonstrated to generate 4% power improvement in runners) hurt the power generated by rowers ?

"Even more important, a runner always moves forward, where a rower continuously changes direction." Think a runner goes up and down, and it is the downward power that is partially returned by the elastic rebound of the shoe. Runner up/down. Rower back/forth. Runner's shoes hit ground at an angle. Rower's shoes hit plate at an angle. Both angles are crafted to enable most effective power transfers.

" you want to dampen the landing and you return the energy when you remove the body weight from the shoe (i.e. when you're past the foot), giving you a small push at the end." Do you have a reference for this? This is not where I expected to see the power transfer. The elastic rebound shouldn't be delayed until body weight is off the shoe. Think of the help you get with a trampoline - it does not come as your feet leave the trampoline.