Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
aussie nick
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by aussie nick » April 4th, 2022, 10:17 pm

AlexFergus wrote:
April 4th, 2022, 8:16 pm
I posted this question for BtLifter over on YT, but I thought I'd post it here as well, as it could be useful for other people training for the 500m sprint, and at the same time I'm curious to get everyone else's views:

I have a question for you:
1) Given the power output/intensity required for these 500m efforts, do you think realistically we can only expect to truely 'perform' (i.e. break a PB) in one row session (whether it is a time trial, or an intense interval) a week?

Because this is what I'm finding, I'm doing my big sprint row on Monday (500m, or 100ms repeats like I did yesterday), big leg weights day tuesday and then I find any other rows I try and do (lets say on a thursday or friday) there is just no 'zing'.
For instance last week I did:
Mon - 500m (PB - average 750watts)
Tues - Leg weights (improving on the previous weeks numbers)
Wed/Thur - off
Friday - attempted 150m x 8 / 2min rest @ race pace - I only held 750watts for 2 repeats! Which is only 300m of rowing with 2mins rest in between! There was simply nothing in the legs, despite all the rest days?!

Now I could have another rest day, but then it gets too close to my Monday 'big' session... so thats why I'm curious to hear your thoughts here - do you think I should only aim to do one BIG/Intense (i.e. PB setting) row a week (whether it's a 500m race, or a sprint interval like the one above)?

--------

And following up on this then, let's say the body only has one big performance in it a week, is there a benefit (a benefical training effect) from doing a second session at sub par performance (i.e still doing that 150m interval session later in the week, even if I'm only holding 650w averages).
OR could that be counter productive - impacting rest for our weekly 'BIG' session, and or, not stimulating a suitable training effect.

Curious to hear your thoughts/what you do.
Of course if I only do one big session a week, then it begs the question what do I do with the rest of my time? Nothing? Recovery/Aerobic rows? Practice starts etc.
I'm weighing up a similar question at the moment. I also feel my zip isn't there as often as I'd like.

I've re-incorporated lower body weights for the first time in a few years and am actually doing two all body weight sessions per week along with 4 rows. (I'll squat and do RDLs in one session and deadlift and power clean in the other...long with upper body pushing and pulling in both). Last year which was my first year rowing, it was the same 4 and 2 split, but I only did upper body weights and I found I was far fresher to attack my rowing more often than I am now.

I program a rest day and an easy distance erg day post my two lifting days and program my most important erg session of the week after my rest day, but I also find that my other rowing sessions are more often disappointing. I'm actually taking a 3 day rest at the moment after 8 weeks of training 6 days per week as my entire system feels tired.

To be honest, reading the above...it's bloody obvious that I'm going to have more fatigue given the lower body lifting. I guess the question is...is there a trade off where there's less performance on my intense rows during the training periods if it can lead to increased time trial performance with a taper during competitions or for planned peaks?

I'm guessing/hoping the answer is 'yes' but I'm not sure
M/52/6ft/86kg
took up rowing during pandemic

500m 1.26.9
1k 3.08.2
2k 6.39.7
5k 18.02.2
30min 8008m

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hjs
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by hjs » April 5th, 2022, 3:47 am

A true 100% effort is very tough, but I think you should be able to do several 95% efforts, if needed even almost daily.
The example you give about not being able to do 150m reps, you maybe are pushing to hard. Think you don’t need to do a weekly 500m at 100%. Better use that day to do a good 95% day.
And, rowing is not rocket science, you should roughy, based on your training results, know in advance what you can. Give of take a bit.
You need two things, first build enough strenght to get your max power up and second build enough endurance to do it for 75 seconds. But training both those at the same time is difficult.
I would say, for know first build your strenght up more and keep your rowing, relative speaking easy. Right now doing full blown 100% efforts take a lot of recovery.
Most guys, the pure sprinters, did not row that much at all, main focus was raw power. Talking about sub 1.15 guys.

Pure rowers, are not the best sprinters, they lack strenght.

btlifter
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by btlifter » April 5th, 2022, 8:51 pm

AlexFergus wrote:
April 4th, 2022, 8:16 pm
I posted this question for BtLifter over on YT, but I thought I'd post it here as well, as it could be useful for other people training for the 500m sprint, and at the same time I'm curious to get everyone else's views:

I have a question for you:
1) Given the power output/intensity required for these 500m efforts, do you think realistically we can only expect to truely 'perform' (i.e. break a PB) in one row session (whether it is a time trial, or an intense interval) a week?

Because this is what I'm finding, I'm doing my big sprint row on Monday (500m, or 100ms repeats like I did yesterday), big leg weights day tuesday and then I find any other rows I try and do (lets say on a thursday or friday) there is just no 'zing'.
For instance last week I did:
Mon - 500m (PB - average 750watts)
Tues - Leg weights (improving on the previous weeks numbers)
Wed/Thur - off
Friday - attempted 150m x 8 / 2min rest @ race pace - I only held 750watts for 2 repeats! Which is only 300m of rowing with 2mins rest in between! There was simply nothing in the legs, despite all the rest days?!

Now I could have another rest day, but then it gets too close to my Monday 'big' session... so thats why I'm curious to hear your thoughts here - do you think I should only aim to do one BIG/Intense (i.e. PB setting) row a week (whether it's a 500m race, or a sprint interval like the one above)?

--------

And following up on this then, let's say the body only has one big performance in it a week, is there a benefit (a benefical training effect) from doing a second session at sub par performance (i.e still doing that 150m interval session later in the week, even if I'm only holding 650w averages).
OR could that be counter productive - impacting rest for our weekly 'BIG' session, and or, not stimulating a suitable training effect.

Curious to hear your thoughts/what you do.
Of course if I only do one big session a week, then it begs the question what do I do with the rest of my time? Nothing? Recovery/Aerobic rows? Practice starts etc.
Interesting questions. Thinking about a 500m row, what do you need to improve to do that? Personally, this is how I prioritize, in order:
1. Improve my absolute strength.
2. Improve my ability to translate that strength to the erg (so, technique).
3. Improve my ability to use and clear lactate.
4. Improve my overall aerobic performance.

Now, I need to figure out how to distribute attention to these priorities. I've watched your videos and I think you do a pretty good job of considering these, so I won't write a novella about my specific approach here. But, the most important thing, imo, is to improve each of these qualities as much as I can, while minimizing how much developing a "lower" priority may impact a "higher" priority.

Personally, I know that low intensity aerobic work has very little interference on the other qualities for me. So, I do as much as I possibly can. Conversely, higher intensity "lactate" focused work is incredibly draining, so I do comparatively very little, even though it's probably "more important".

With that in mind, for you, the question becomes, what can you do on another day that will provide a net positive effect. If you can fit in an hour of low intensity aerobic work (and feel well recovered from it), great - I'm positive it will make you faster! Not a lot faster, but a little bit. Similarly, practicing starts, and doing 50m x 9-15 reps w/sufficient rest (at race pace or faster), will likely help you improve... if you can recover from it.

Having said all of that, have you considered doing your big erg day and your heavy lifting on the same day? Maybe it's impractical for you. But personally, I have 2-3 "high intensity" days on the erg and 2 heavy lower body lifting days. I need to ensure those are the same day - as much for psychological as physical reasons, I need to know I have a few days of no intensity infront of me.

Lastly, I agree with HJS - 95% is usually nearly as effective as 100%, and seemingly an order of magnitude less difficult to recover from. Personally, the way I do this is by ensuring I can negative split my intervals. So, let's say I'm trying to do 150m repeats at goal 500m race pace (approx 1000 watts). My reps might look like:
rep 1: 980w
rep 2: 995w
rep 3: 1005w
rep 4: 1015w
rep 5: 1025w

... if I don't think I can hit 1030+ for a 6th rep, that's where I'll shut it down.
chop stuff and carry stuff

Tsnor
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by Tsnor » April 6th, 2022, 1:01 pm

THIS --->
btlifter wrote:
April 5th, 2022, 8:51 pm
.. I have 2-3 "high intensity" days on the erg and 2 heavy lower body lifting days. I need to ensure those are the same day -


If you need confirmation look at the time required to recover from max lifts, it's measured in days. Your 1-2 minute absolute max efforts need recovery time. Recovery time is where you gain -- the workouts at the wattage levels you're using are breaking you down, you only get stronger during recovery.

Typical pattern from exceeding 2-3 max workout days a week
(1) months of outstanding gains. If you only have 3 months to prep, do many hard workouts.
(2) performance plateau. Your body stops responding to the workouts you are doing. You pick up overreach symptoms -- feeling of fatigue, energy loss, chronic colds, infections and other illnesses, insomnia, stamina decline, rising resting heart rate, falling heart rate variability
(3) If you keep pushing then performance goes negative, max heart rate you can hit falls, etc. Many resources on this, for example https://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfit ... ays.4.aspx

Aside: look into supercompensation. The workouts you are doing are the type you would do for a short period of time to gain the (sometimes disputed) benefits of supercompensation. The reason to look into supercompensation is to read the risk/rewards and the max time that athletes would use this type of overload approach. People can't run at max levels too long without breaking down. Trying to max weights and hit PB 500M times every week is not a sustainable approach for most people. How long you can do it is genetically determined. From your 500m times you are at the top end, so maybe weekly max efforts will work for you, but most people would do PB level efforts at most monthly - there's a recent thread on this, and there is research saying hitting 95% works better than full max given recovery implications.

Dutch
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by Dutch » April 6th, 2022, 1:29 pm

Some of the information on this thread has been pretty amazing. Seeing peoples training schedules, training aims, results of training etc has been quite interesting watching it unfold. :)
Age 54, 185cm 79kg

AlexFergus
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 8:49 pm

aussie nick wrote:
April 4th, 2022, 10:17 pm
I'm weighing up a similar question at the moment. I also feel my zip isn't there as often as I'd like.

I've re-incorporated lower body weights for the first time in a few years and am actually doing two all body weight sessions per week along with 4 rows. (I'll squat and do RDLs in one session and deadlift and power clean in the other...long with upper body pushing and pulling in both). Last year which was my first year rowing, it was the same 4 and 2 split, but I only did upper body weights and I found I was far fresher to attack my rowing more often than I am now.

I program a rest day and an easy distance erg day post my two lifting days and program my most important erg session of the week after my rest day, but I also find that my other rowing sessions are more often disappointing. I'm actually taking a 3 day rest at the moment after 8 weeks of training 6 days per week as my entire system feels tired.

To be honest, reading the above...it's bloody obvious that I'm going to have more fatigue given the lower body lifting. I guess the question is...is there a trade off where there's less performance on my intense rows during the training periods if it can lead to increased time trial performance with a taper during competitions or for planned peaks?

I'm guessing/hoping the answer is 'yes' but I'm not sure
Yeah it's a balancing act isn't it. I know that you can push the body harder than you think - but I also know too much of this does eventually catch up with you.

My main dilemma now is figuring how whether I should still push hard even if the body isn't putting out what it can do... or if I just put my feet up and rest instead?!
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

AlexFergus
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Posts: 68
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 9:06 pm

hjs wrote:
April 5th, 2022, 3:47 am
A true 100% effort is very tough, but I think you should be able to do several 95% efforts, if needed even almost daily.
The example you give about not being able to do 150m reps, you maybe are pushing to hard. Think you don’t need to do a weekly 500m at 100%. Better use that day to do a good 95% day.
And, rowing is not rocket science, you should roughy, based on your training results, know in advance what you can. Give of take a bit.
You need two things, first build enough strenght to get your max power up and second build enough endurance to do it for 75 seconds. But training both those at the same time is difficult.
I would say, for know first build your strenght up more and keep your rowing, relative speaking easy. Right now doing full blown 100% efforts take a lot of recovery.
Most guys, the pure sprinters, did not row that much at all, main focus was raw power. Talking about sub 1.15 guys.

Pure rowers, are not the best sprinters, they lack strenght.

I don't know if my body could do several 95% efforts during a week - or even daily. I mean I know I could push my body to 95% - but I don't think my performance would match.

I guess I've gone from an intial training plan with 3 big rows down to one :P
I suppose at the end of the day as long as my 500m time is getting quicker it doesn't really matter does it?!

I do wonder though if I respond better to more of a minimalistic approach of training, one or two hard sessions a week - and I do mean HARD - and then relax.

In fact looking back on my sporting days I often did way too much training.
When i rowed on the water we were doing 12 sessions a week - most of them were long low HR technique rows, but eventually I burnt out and gave up the sport because I felt so rubbish (physically and mentally).
I then turned to powerlifting, and would only train 3x a week - big sessions - sometimes 2-3 hours each - but given the load on the body and CNS thats all you would need. Plus every 4 weeks I'd have a week off. I did some big numbers and broke some records training like that (including a 2.75x bodyweight squat).

Then i dabbled in sprint cycling - this was stupidly intense - 2 big sessions a DAY. I lasted about 3 months before walking away from the sport. I did do something like 2100watts on the WattBike though (my physique and body type is much better suited to sprint cycling than rowing!)

Then I got into bodybuilding, and that is a funny sport because yes you push your body hard but it's not performance orientated. Anyway that sport broke me (well actually it was the straw that broke the camels back as they say) and it took me a few years to recover.
If anyone is interested in my full story/journey and all the health issues etc then check out this - https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/about-alex-fergus

Anyway - what happened after this was interesting, I became so busy building my business and was paranoid of over training I ended up following a High Intensity / Body By Science protocol - which was literally 1x 15min strength session a WEEK.
The science behind this training was solid, and as a PT I figured I'd give it a go as it could be a useful training option for time poor clients.

I did this training for 3 months then went to PaleoFx in Austin and competed in their RealFit competition for a laugh and some marketing exposure (9 events over 3 days - kinda like cross fit I guess) and low and behold I won it. You can read that story here - https://www.paleofx.com/less-more-slowi ... fit-champ/

Anyway my performance there blew my mind. How was I out performing younger guys who trained for Crossfit etc on only one gym session a week...

So, this is why now I wonder if less is more. As long as when you do train the intention is clear (you have a purpose and reason for doing that particular workout) and (and this is the key) that you push yourself incredibly hard. This last point is key and why a lot of people can't train this way.
In fact it's why I couldn't continue doing that Body By Science routine - and it's no doubt why BTLifter has said he has to cycle through his intense training blocks etc.

Lots to think about I guess. I know I'm still in my early days with my 500m training - so I could do almost anything and get results, but this won't work for too much longer, plus with my lofty goals, and physical limitations (height and age) I know I need to be wise.


If there are any sports scientists here - I would love to know if the body receives a training effect from a workout that feels like 95% but performance wise is only say 70% of max effort.
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

AlexFergus
500m Poster
Posts: 68
Joined: March 13th, 2022, 9:27 pm
Location: New Zealand
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 9:19 pm

btlifter wrote:
April 5th, 2022, 8:51 pm

Interesting questions. Thinking about a 500m row, what do you need to improve to do that? Personally, this is how I prioritize, in order:
1. Improve my absolute strength.
2. Improve my ability to translate that strength to the erg (so, technique).
3. Improve my ability to use and clear lactate.
4. Improve my overall aerobic performance.

Now, I need to figure out how to distribute attention to these priorities. I've watched your videos and I think you do a pretty good job of considering these, so I won't write a novella about my specific approach here. But, the most important thing, imo, is to improve each of these qualities as much as I can, while minimizing how much developing a "lower" priority may impact a "higher" priority.

Personally, I know that low intensity aerobic work has very little interference on the other qualities for me. So, I do as much as I possibly can. Conversely, higher intensity "lactate" focused work is incredibly draining, so I do comparatively very little, even though it's probably "more important".

With that in mind, for you, the question becomes, what can you do on another day that will provide a net positive effect. If you can fit in an hour of low intensity aerobic work (and feel well recovered from it), great - I'm positive it will make you faster! Not a lot faster, but a little bit. Similarly, practicing starts, and doing 50m x 9-15 reps w/sufficient rest (at race pace or faster), will likely help you improve... if you can recover from it.

Having said all of that, have you considered doing your big erg day and your heavy lifting on the same day? Maybe it's impractical for you. But personally, I have 2-3 "high intensity" days on the erg and 2 heavy lower body lifting days. I need to ensure those are the same day - as much for psychological as physical reasons, I need to know I have a few days of no intensity infront of me.

Lastly, I agree with HJS - 95% is usually nearly as effective as 100%, and seemingly an order of magnitude less difficult to recover from. Personally, the way I do this is by ensuring I can negative split my intervals. So, let's say I'm trying to do 150m repeats at goal 500m race pace (approx 1000 watts). My reps might look like:
rep 1: 980w
rep 2: 995w
rep 3: 1005w
rep 4: 1015w
rep 5: 1025w

... if I don't think I can hit 1030+ for a 6th rep, that's where I'll shut it down.
Amazing insight and I thank you so much for this comment.
Regarding your four 'pillars':
1. Improve my absolute strength.
2. Improve my ability to translate that strength to the erg (so, technique).
3. Improve my ability to use and clear lactate.
4. Improve my overall aerobic performance.


Yes this is how I see it as well.
I know personally point 1 is developing great.
Point 3 is a big limitation at the moment (I think I'll do a 300m test soon and work out a ratio between the 300m and 500m - that will show how poor my aneorbic tolerance is, but at the same time give me a marker to track my progress with).

Point 2 - technique - I'm curious, I would have assumed this would be lower on the list, so how do you train for this? Looks of experiments and tweaking? SLow mo videos and that sort of jazz?

Point 4 - aerobic load - agreed, I don't expect a better aerobic base to directly produce enormous benefits in my 500m time BUT I would expect that this improved aerobic state to help with recovery, and even help my other sessions (i.e. interval training, weights day etc) so it's why I continue to work it in.

Your comments do show that there is no one 'perfect' approach and at the same time it comes down to recovery. If I could recover faster then sure up the load.

As for doing my big erg and big lift on the same day - someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread and I know it may make sense on paper, but I know it won't happen. One the session will be too long for my day routines etc. But two I don't see myself mentally getting up for two big peaks. My lower body workouts are brutal and I'm anxious all day on legs day. I've always been like this haha. Throwing a big erg session in the mix will be too much.

I do align with your habit of having a few days of low intensity though - I like that. I like knowing I have a 2-3 day block 'off' training for instance. I embrace that rest!


After reading all of these comments and doing some thinking, I think I will continue with my Monday big Erg day, Tuesday lower body, Wednesday Upper body plan.
I write this on a Thursday and I can tell you know my body feels beat.
At least with this approach if my Monday and Tuesday numbers improve on the previous week, then heck I could put my feet up for the rest of the week and know I've made progress.

But I will get into the gym today and or maybe Friday.
I think today I'll do a slow easy aerobic/recovery row.
Then Friday look at doing some Plyo's and maybe play around with some starts or short efforts on the erg. If I feel sluggish then just pull the pin and call it a week before I have the weekend off.

As always, I appreciate all the comments and advise and apologise if I'm a rambling scatter brain :P
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

AlexFergus
500m Poster
Posts: 68
Joined: March 13th, 2022, 9:27 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 9:26 pm

Tsnor wrote:
April 6th, 2022, 1:01 pm
THIS --->
btlifter wrote:
April 5th, 2022, 8:51 pm
.. I have 2-3 "high intensity" days on the erg and 2 heavy lower body lifting days. I need to ensure those are the same day -


If you need confirmation look at the time required to recover from max lifts, it's measured in days. Your 1-2 minute absolute max efforts need recovery time. Recovery time is where you gain -- the workouts at the wattage levels you're using are breaking you down, you only get stronger during recovery.

Typical pattern from exceeding 2-3 max workout days a week
(1) months of outstanding gains. If you only have 3 months to prep, do many hard workouts.
(2) performance plateau. Your body stops responding to the workouts you are doing. You pick up overreach symptoms -- feeling of fatigue, energy loss, chronic colds, infections and other illnesses, insomnia, stamina decline, rising resting heart rate, falling heart rate variability
(3) If you keep pushing then performance goes negative, max heart rate you can hit falls, etc. Many resources on this, for example https://journals.lww.com/acsm-healthfit ... ays.4.aspx

Aside: look into supercompensation. The workouts you are doing are the type you would do for a short period of time to gain the (sometimes disputed) benefits of supercompensation. The reason to look into supercompensation is to read the risk/rewards and the max time that athletes would use this type of overload approach. People can't run at max levels too long without breaking down. Trying to max weights and hit PB 500M times every week is not a sustainable approach for most people. How long you can do it is genetically determined. From your 500m times you are at the top end, so maybe weekly max efforts will work for you, but most people would do PB level efforts at most monthly - there's a recent thread on this, and there is research saying hitting 95% works better than full max given recovery implications.
Thanks Tsnor,
Do you recall the thread you mentioned?

I am tracking a lot of my recovery metrics (RHR, HRV, Respiration Rate, Basal Temp). I even use Polars jump test recovery metrics. Actually those jump test results are quite interesting.
Monday I feel like I have springs in my feet - 45-49cm measurements.
Then the rest of the week it's down hill from there. Low 40's etc. The day after my Leg workout it's about 36cm.

I have burnt myself pretty bad from overtraining (I mean really bad - rock bottom testosterone, gut issues, serious sleep issues etc) so I'm very particular about keeping an eye on my longer term recovery now :P
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

aussie nick
10k Poster
Posts: 1375
Joined: June 21st, 2021, 7:12 pm

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by aussie nick » April 6th, 2022, 9:30 pm

AlexFergus wrote:
April 6th, 2022, 8:49 pm
aussie nick wrote:
April 4th, 2022, 10:17 pm
I'm weighing up a similar question at the moment. I also feel my zip isn't there as often as I'd like.

I've re-incorporated lower body weights for the first time in a few years and am actually doing two all body weight sessions per week along with 4 rows. (I'll squat and do RDLs in one session and deadlift and power clean in the other...long with upper body pushing and pulling in both). Last year which was my first year rowing, it was the same 4 and 2 split, but I only did upper body weights and I found I was far fresher to attack my rowing more often than I am now.

I program a rest day and an easy distance erg day post my two lifting days and program my most important erg session of the week after my rest day, but I also find that my other rowing sessions are more often disappointing. I'm actually taking a 3 day rest at the moment after 8 weeks of training 6 days per week as my entire system feels tired.

To be honest, reading the above...it's bloody obvious that I'm going to have more fatigue given the lower body lifting. I guess the question is...is there a trade off where there's less performance on my intense rows during the training periods if it can lead to increased time trial performance with a taper during competitions or for planned peaks?

I'm guessing/hoping the answer is 'yes' but I'm not sure
Yeah it's a balancing act isn't it. I know that you can push the body harder than you think - but I also know too much of this does eventually catch up with you.

My main dilemma now is figuring how whether I should still push hard even if the body isn't putting out what it can do... or if I just put my feet up and rest instead?!
yep. What does your rest schedule currently look like?

It won't be the panacea, but I'm thinking of trialling an 8 day rotation with 2 rest days, vs the current 7 day rotation to see if the additional recovery allows for better quality training days. Apart from 'neatness', there's no real reason to muscle everything into a 7 day calendar
M/52/6ft/86kg
took up rowing during pandemic

500m 1.26.9
1k 3.08.2
2k 6.39.7
5k 18.02.2
30min 8008m

aussie nick
10k Poster
Posts: 1375
Joined: June 21st, 2021, 7:12 pm

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by aussie nick » April 6th, 2022, 9:35 pm

Dutch wrote:
April 6th, 2022, 1:29 pm
Some of the information on this thread has been pretty amazing. Seeing peoples training schedules, training aims, results of training etc has been quite interesting watching it unfold. :)
agree 100%. super high quality thread
M/52/6ft/86kg
took up rowing during pandemic

500m 1.26.9
1k 3.08.2
2k 6.39.7
5k 18.02.2
30min 8008m

AlexFergus
500m Poster
Posts: 68
Joined: March 13th, 2022, 9:27 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 9:37 pm

Just throwing this out there for my own notes,
I think I'll use this sort of approach for a few weeks to see how it goes:

Monday - Hard Row (cycling through different workouts in the month)
Week 1 - Short Sprint Intervals / Starts
Week 2 - Combo Interval ( pyramid type session with some short bursts building into longer pieces
Week 3 - Erg Power Test (7 stroke pieces training starts and testing low pulls)
Week 4 - Time Trial Test (300m / 1min / 500m / 1000m )
Week 5 - Combo Interval


Tuesday - Lower Body Weights

Wednesday - Upper Body Weights

Thursday - Aerobic Easy Row

Friday - optional workout
- alternating between Plyos/full body weights and Lactate Intervals
Week A - Plyo/Full Body Weights
Week B - Lactate Threshold Erg


Sat/Sun - Off (or a backup day if I missed a workout during the week)
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

AlexFergus
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Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 6th, 2022, 9:40 pm

aussie nick wrote:
April 6th, 2022, 9:30 pm

yep. What does your rest schedule currently look like?

It won't be the panacea, but I'm thinking of trialling an 8 day rotation with 2 rest days, vs the current 7 day rotation to see if the additional recovery allows for better quality training days. Apart from 'neatness', there's no real reason to muscle everything into a 7 day calendar
I just posted my new plan for this month, have a look at that.

Though I know recovery isn't just type off training. Unfortunately my sleep isn't the greatest (6.5 hours a night on av) this is just because of the baby and 3 year old (who is a very light sleeper) in the house. And me having too many hobbies (farm, reading, shooting, gym, gardening, hunting) and running my company :P

But I am fortunate to have a lot of recovery hacks on hand (IR saunas, red light therapy, an assortment of supplements) and we live in a low stress rural environment (I work from home) and eat a really high quality diet (a lot of home grown/home raised vegetables and meats, organic where possible etc).
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

AlexFergus
500m Poster
Posts: 68
Joined: March 13th, 2022, 9:27 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by AlexFergus » April 7th, 2022, 2:30 am

Oh and I'm with you on the 'neatness' of a 7 day training schedule. After 15 years of training programming, no matter how hard I try, I always resort back to a 7 day schedule. I'm a sucker for routine and having structure (half the reason I'm so active in this thread - trying to figure out how to schedule my training, it eats at me when it's not planned out!)

I have often pondered how my body/performance etc would look if we lived in a world of 8 day weeks or 10 day weeks haha
34, 5'10, 106kg
LP - 1:05.7
300m - 43.4
500: 1:16.2


Ex LWT Rower (in my 20's) with 6:26 2k
Returning to the erg after 12 years off. Goal is to break the NZ 500m HWT record (1:14.3)

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hjs
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Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: Training To Break 1:14 - 500m

Post by hjs » April 7th, 2022, 3:56 am

AlexFergus wrote:
April 6th, 2022, 9:06 pm
hjs wrote:
April 5th, 2022, 3:47 am
A true 100% effort is very tough, but I think you should be able to do several 95% efforts, if needed even almost daily.
The example you give about not being able to do 150m reps, you maybe are pushing to hard. Think you don’t need to do a weekly 500m at 100%. Better use that day to do a good 95% day.
And, rowing is not rocket science, you should roughy, based on your training results, know in advance what you can. Give of take a bit.
You need two things, first build enough strenght to get your max power up and second build enough endurance to do it for 75 seconds. But training both those at the same time is difficult.
I would say, for know first build your strenght up more and keep your rowing, relative speaking easy. Right now doing full blown 100% efforts take a lot of recovery.
Most guys, the pure sprinters, did not row that much at all, main focus was raw power. Talking about sub 1.15 guys.

Pure rowers, are not the best sprinters, they lack strenght.

I don't know if my body could do several 95% efforts during a week - or even daily. I mean I know I could push my body to 95% - but I don't think my performance would match.

I guess I've gone from an intial training plan with 3 big rows down to one :P
I suppose at the end of the day as long as my 500m time is getting quicker it doesn't really matter does it?!

I do wonder though if I respond better to more of a minimalistic approach of training, one or two hard sessions a week - and I do mean HARD - and then relax.

In fact looking back on my sporting days I often did way too much training.
When i rowed on the water we were doing 12 sessions a week - most of them were long low HR technique rows, but eventually I burnt out and gave up the sport because I felt so rubbish (physically and mentally).
I then turned to powerlifting, and would only train 3x a week - big sessions - sometimes 2-3 hours each - but given the load on the body and CNS thats all you would need. Plus every 4 weeks I'd have a week off. I did some big numbers and broke some records training like that (including a 2.75x bodyweight squat).

Then i dabbled in sprint cycling - this was stupidly intense - 2 big sessions a DAY. I lasted about 3 months before walking away from the sport. I did do something like 2100watts on the WattBike though (my physique and body type is much better suited to sprint cycling than rowing!)

Then I got into bodybuilding, and that is a funny sport because yes you push your body hard but it's not performance orientated. Anyway that sport broke me (well actually it was the straw that broke the camels back as they say) and it took me a few years to recover.
If anyone is interested in my full story/journey and all the health issues etc then check out this - https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/about-alex-fergus

Anyway - what happened after this was interesting, I became so busy building my business and was paranoid of over training I ended up following a High Intensity / Body By Science protocol - which was literally 1x 15min strength session a WEEK.
The science behind this training was solid, and as a PT I figured I'd give it a go as it could be a useful training option for time poor clients.

I did this training for 3 months then went to PaleoFx in Austin and competed in their RealFit competition for a laugh and some marketing exposure (9 events over 3 days - kinda like cross fit I guess) and low and behold I won it. You can read that story here - https://www.paleofx.com/less-more-slowi ... fit-champ/

Anyway my performance there blew my mind. How was I out performing younger guys who trained for Crossfit etc on only one gym session a week...

So, this is why now I wonder if less is more. As long as when you do train the intention is clear (you have a purpose and reason for doing that particular workout) and (and this is the key) that you push yourself incredibly hard. This last point is key and why a lot of people can't train this way.
In fact it's why I couldn't continue doing that Body By Science routine - and it's no doubt why BTLifter has said he has to cycle through his intense training blocks etc.

Lots to think about I guess. I know I'm still in my early days with my 500m training - so I could do almost anything and get results, but this won't work for too much longer, plus with my lofty goals, and physical limitations (height and age) I know I need to be wise.


If there are any sports scientists here - I would love to know if the body receives a training effect from a workout that feels like 95% but performance wise is only say 70% of max effort.
Interesting responds, but to much to answer it all ;-) But it clearly says you know a thing or two.
Re volume, pure endurance sports, high volume is needed, nobody is succesfull otherwise. Pure 2k rowers all train lots. Talking about the sub 5.45 guys. But thats not 500m

Re 95% effort (which is just a general number) how we could measure that is not possible. Think you maybe could name that the Bulgarian method. Think you know it, but if not, a daily squat, with one max set at 90% minimum of your daily max. And the daily max again being 90% of your training max. This should give a number you can always do, nomatter what form of day.
After this a few back up sets. If you feel good you go for a (training) pb, most days you settle for that 90% of 90%.

This tough idea was transferred to 500/1k rowing by a guy called (Shawn baker) now the carnivor promotor. He did a daily row, rate restricted. 1k and later 500. Nothing more nothing less. Starting at rate 20 (very low) and slowly building up to race rate 2 spm per rate up. Having a goalpace per rate.
He ended up at 1.14.x age 50 6.4 250 ish (from memory) Maybe you can ask him yourself (twitter?)
Later is was broken and set on 1.13, guy from Australia, who actually died soon after, while doing an easy 30 min row :| No speculation from my side.

I myself, also being 49/50 at that time, smaller though. 6.1 95kg tried that a bit. I pulled 2.56 and 1.20 flat. I lacked raw power to be really fast. This way of training gets you used of doing a hard effort, but you know you can, and you really build your body around that one thing. It gets very natural.

Back to the 95% idea. You know (race) your 500 at max, going off hard and dying full blown. The 95% idea is not starting so fast, but get to goalpace and not faster. Use a rate restriction, and ofcourse lower your goalpace. An effort like this will be way easier on your body and also you mind. Goal should be to keep goalpace for the full 500m. So you miss the dying part, which is part that taxes your body the most. Doing this makes is possible to do much more hard, but never 100% efforts.
Ofcourse, at times, you do go, full 100%, with the dying part included.

In short, no advice :D , but just thoughts about things could be done. Up to you to use of not what you want. In the end it should suit you and should work.

Good luck and enjoy.

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