Relatively Weak 2km Time

[OregonERG]

What I want most of all in rowing is to break 7 again.

According to the French protocol, for a 7' 2k you'll need to be able pull a single 500 at pace 1:32-1:33.

I found 500s for this purpose were best done at not more than 35-36, using a full stroke.

The 2k could then be paced 1:42 - 1:47 - 1:47 - 1:43.

The Power ratio between paces 1.33 and 1.45 is 70%.

1:32 is literally impossible for me for even 10 meters. I can't get the erg going that fast. I sniff 1:39 sometimes when I am trying to break the machine or injure myself, but faster than that, never!

[Dutch]

When you touch 1.39 what df are you using ?

[OregonERG]

When you touch 1.39 what df are you using ?

I always row with the damper on 4.5 and the DF is 117. I would consider dropping the DF to 107, which I know worked for me on other Concept2 machines I have used...

What about you?

[iain]

I always row with the damper on 4.5 and the DF is 117. I would consider dropping the DF to 107, which I know worked for me on other Concept2 machines I have used...

I am not convinced on the French relation between 500 & 2k. I think that it may be reasonable for strong young heavyweights, but older lightweights with relatively stronger aerobic than anaerobic systems can usually manage significantly more than 70% of 500m watts for a 2k. That said, your example is more extreme than others I have said. Re low pull, what rating is that at? I have managed 1:39 at R30 although using a DF of 170. That is as a weak 52 year old who is 1.80m tall and have a lean mass of 58-59kg. At >70SPM I can get down to 1:30-1 but it isn't pretty. For comparison You should be able to lower your low pull by INCREASING drag not reducing it, although it may take a few more strokes to achieve maximum pace and you may find that over 500m the greater strength requirement means that you fade quicker and so it isn't faster. I only up DF by 10% maximum over 500m. I don't have your stamina and have a 2k best a little above 7:30 in recent years and a 5k best of 19:44.

[hjs]

I always row with the damper on 4.5 and the DF is 117. I would consider dropping the DF to 107, which I know worked for me on other Concept2 machines I have used...

I am not convinced on the French relation between 500 & 2k. I think that it may be reasonable for strong young heavyweights, but older lightweights with relatively stronger aerobic than anaerobic systems can usually manage significantly more than 70% of 500m watts for a 2k. That said, your example is more extreme than others I have said. Re low pull, what rating is that at? I have managed 1:39 at R30 although using a DF of 170. That is as a weak 52 year old who is 1.80m tall and have a lean mass of 58-59kg. At >70SPM I can get down to 1:30-1 but it isn't pretty. For comparison You should be able to lower your low pull by INCREASING drag not reducing it, although it may take a few more strokes to achieve maximum pace and you may find that over 500m the greater strength requirement means that you fade quicker and so it isn't faster. I only up DF by 10% maximum over 500m. I don't have your stamina and have a 2k best a little above 7:30 in recent years and a 5k best of 19:44.

There is non, 500 is much more anaerobic, take a few rowers and ask about their 500/2k times. They will often differ lots.
Most of the time the 500m will be a lot faster relative speaking. The other way around is much less seen.

Low pull is not rate or drag restricted, its the most power you can bring.

Almost always, not strenght, but fitness is the limiting factor in rowing. The few who lack power often spend their hole life to kill every bit of speed they have.

Fun fact, although 500m time says not do much more over a 2k, for absolute beginners/juniors, low pull is a very important metric to see if someone has good potential for rowing. No matter what you need a certain speed to get anywhere. In rowing itself speed is not trained much, so that needs to be a given to begin with.

[Dutch]

When you touch 1.39 what df are you using ?

I always row with the damper on 4.5 and the DF is 117. I would consider dropping the DF to 107, which I know worked for me on other Concept2 machines I have used...

What about you?

I use 130 for 2k and upwards and 140 for 1k and 500. My 100 meter is probably somewhere around 165 to 200, I have not honed that in yet this year.
I look for balance between strength and aerobic capacity, I am fairly strong but my aerobic capacity is behind my anerobic ability currently, but is fast catching up.
I do believe in trying lots of experiments to get the perfect rowing mix of df, stroke etc and as long as you have tried, it may not all come together perfect on the day but the mind can just get on with rowing and pacing.
I do believe you would benefit from a higher drag, I would suggest 125, Try say 3x2000 meters and do one on 117, one on 122 then one on 125. Lost of people will jump up and down saying that is pointless, it is such a small margin etc, but I have found that we can ask all the questions we want for a pefect answer the only way we truely find out is to experiment and then you will know what you like exactly.
Also if you do feel weak, buy some dumbells and do sets of reps no more than 3x8 and just get some tone in your upper body, it will do wonders for the mind.
Humans are capable of fantastic feats of ability but we defeat ourselves with theory and lack of trying something new because some research says it is no good. Even if the research does say it is no good, it is only a sample of people and no two people are the same so it may not apply. Dont be put off by other peoples say so.

[Dangerscouse]

Lost of people will jump up and down saying that is pointless, it is such a small margin etc, but I have found that we can ask all the questions we want for a pefect answer the only way we truely find out is to experiment and then you will know what you like exactly.
Also if you do feel weak, buy some dumbells and do sets of reps no more than 3x8 and just get some tone in your upper body, it will do wonders for the mind.
Humans are capable of fantastic feats of ability but we defeat ourselves with theory and lack of trying something new because some research says it is no good. Even if the research does say it is no good, it is only a sample of people and no two people are the same so it may not apply. Dont be put off by other peoples say so.

I couldn't agree any more. There is an inherent bias to follow research and what has worked for you as the only way to do things. In reality, minor tweaks can make a major difference.

Research and opinion are very important and useful, but don't be fooled into slavishly following anything that you haven't specifically tried for yourself and really interrogated its efficacy.

[OregonERG]

Humans are capable of fantastic feats of ability but we defeat ourselves with theory and lack of trying something new because some research says it is no good. Even if the research does say it is no good, it is only a sample of people and no two people are the same so it may not apply. Dont be put off by other peoples say so.

Yep! And the first thing I have to do is an actual 2km workout. I need to stop worrying about the 2km and start rowing real intervals on the the real pace. I have done more long sets this Spring than ever before but I have only done one "workout" that was remotely targeted at the 2km. That is on me. It is like trying to run a good mile based off of half-marathon training. It just doesn't work. The "hour" is not the "2km" and we all know that... Even I know that...

[iain]

Yep! And the first thing I have to do is an actual 2km workout. I need to stop worrying about the 2km and start rowing real intervals on the the real pace. I have done more long sets this Spring than ever before but I have only done one "workout" that was remotely targeted at the 2km. That is on me. It is like trying to run a good mile based off of half-marathon training. It just doesn't work. The "hour" is not the "2km" and we all know that... Even I know that...

Good luck with the 2k. Personally I find doing a 4 x 1km with plenty of rest first really helps. Broadly you face the same issues as in each of the 500s of a 2k in the successive intervals at only a slightly reduced pace. Knowing that I have got through that gives me great confidence that I can do the real deal and recent experiences I can draw on when the2km gets tough.

- Iain

[jamesg]

And the first thing I have to do is an actual 2km workout.

There's plenty of choice here:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

As you already have very good endurance, you could jump into a 2k Interactive schedule using only the last month, which is tapering.

Since you have a target too, about 300W, the bands can be based on this rather than on a test. The UT1 work will be at about 220W and rating 23, which may need some preliminary work on the stroke itself.

[OregonERG]

And the first thing I have to do is an actual 2km workout.

There's plenty of choice here:
http://3.8.144.21/training/interactive

As you already have very good endurance, you could jump into a 2k Interactive schedule using only the last month, which is tapering.

Since you have a target too, about 300W, the bands can be based on this rather than on a test. The UT1 work will be at about 220W and rating 23, which may need some preliminary work on the stroke itself.

Thanks! I'll check those out!

[dknickerbocker]

some peopel have already insinuated this (hjs?) but aside from technique, even more fundamentally, there's no "one" constant relationship between paces over different durations. every individual's pace:duration curve will be slightly different. You can see it in pretty stark terms when you look at 800 meter runners. Can have two runners who run the same half mile but you might have one who's fast at the 4 but slower at the 16, the other that's slower at the 4 and faster at the 16. Track coaches partially account for this variation by separating into "sprinters" and "distance" but it's really not binary. So you can really see, that you really can't say, oh this distance should be X% of your mile time. Sometimes that works but just as often it doesn't.

I think the French 500/2000 meter relationship holds, at least somewhat, because they're deriving that data from elite rowers. Since so many of those elite rowers are training for the 2K (as opposed to running where you have 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200 and so on and so on), the variations among them are probably more subtle just from a data perspective. But you should still expect to have some with stronger relative anaerobic contribution than others.

OregonERG, it sounds like you would probably benefit a lot from adding in some higher intensity. 2K requires strong aerobic capacity but you're also tapping into that anaerobic energy and aerobic glycolisis as well, because it's well, well above the pace that's longer-term sustainable (e.g. lactate threshold). You don't have to do it all the time, probably shouldnt' do it all the time, but give it a shot. Start off with a conservative number of intervals, twice a week and see how it goes. You probably will get substantial benefit from just a couple two or three week mesocycles.

[OregonERG]

OregonERG, it sounds like you would probably benefit a lot from adding in some higher intensity. 2K requires strong aerobic capacity but you're also tapping into that anaerobic energy and aerobic glycolisis as well, because it's well, well above the pace that's longer-term sustainable (e.g. lactate threshold). You don't have to do it all the time, probably shouldnt' do it all the time, but give it a shot. Start off with a conservative number of intervals, twice a week and see how it goes. You probably will get substantial benefit from just a couple two or three week mesocycles.

Thanks for the tips. I agree that this is the direction I need to go... Sadly, June has simply become "weight loss month" and before I do too many specific workouts, I am just trying to cut weight. I have been a lightweight my whole life and a couple weeks ago I stepped on a scale and was shocked. So, everything is on hold until I have a better grip on my BMI.

I can't wait until I can get back to rowing real workouts. All I am really doing right now is running and intermittent fasting (which does seem to be working).

[Kursplunk]

OregonERG: Any update on your Sub7 2k training progress?