Heart Rate High during UT1 Training

[gobuk]

Hi,

I got a Concept2 recently an have been reading a lot here. I train 4x a week on the rower. I do 3x UT1 and once a week longer intervals (3x2000m with 4min rest). I am 35 yo, 6.2ft and 180lb. My best 2k time so far is 7:40min (1:55min pace). My question is related to the UT1 training.

My max heart rate is 185bpm and my resting heart rate is 60bpm. I am usually doing 45min of SS UT1 with a heart monitor. What confuses me is that even at 2:25min pace (+30sec of my 2k pace) my heart rate is all the way up between 160 and 165. This seems to be not the norm based on what I have read here and I would expect a lower heart rate. What does it imply about my physiology? Not enough aerobic training/base?

Thanks!

[Tony Cook]

From what I’ve read (I’m not a sports scientist whose done his own empirical research) some coaches say work on pace and ignore HR others say work to HR cap.
Also we are all individuals and those HR zones are based on many people - some people are outliers. The important thing is not to overtrain so if you can train with a high HR without becoming fatigued - ie your other training suffers because you’ve worked too hard on UT sessions - then keep at that pace.
I’ve worked on both - Concept interactive plan to HR and Wolverine to pace, ignoring HR. I noticed that over time my pace increase at the same HR with the Concept plan and my 2k improved more with Woverine, without becoming fatigued.
I think you just have to try it.

[Dangerscouse]

As Tony says there's a general rule, and there are outliers. Humans are always inclined to look for patterns to confirm that they are doing the right thing, but in reality there's so many variables that sit beneath the 'general rule' it can be a hindrance for some people.

I'm not a big fan of the generic +xx seconds as it can be misleading depending on your physiology, experience, current fitness, stroke rate, drag factor and your suitability for longer or shorter distances.

I do subscribe to the HR cap theory, albeit a loose guide, as this provides something to compare against as you progress. Aerobic fitness happens glacially slowly, so it's very useful to have something that you can compare against on a macro level ie months, not weeks, as your pace will be pick up as your HR adapts. If you have no HR cap it's a bit of a gamble when your sessions will be counter productive, and you'll probably only realise long after you've done too much and it can be a tough thing to get back on track. Admittedly rowing at circa 75% of max HR will bruise your ego, so be prepared, although taking a step back to take two steps forward is sometimes the ideal solution.

What is also useful is to check how quickly your HR drops down to 100. Recovery after exercise is also a good indicator of fitness, and it might be more important for you as your HR might be unusual in that it naturally runs higher than expected.

I know some very good rowers who varying HRs: both are capable of 6:10 2ks, but one will max out at 165, and the other will slightly exceed 200. A good example of the variety in HR and showing it's not always got to be how you'd expect it to be.

[Tsnor]

I got a Concept2 recently. I train 4x a week on the rower.

Been rowing long enough that your muscles/heart/lungs etc are in balance (few months) or are you still in startup/learning ? During startup based on how much aeorbic other exercises you did (e.g. lots or cycling or no cycling) your HR will tell you different things about your muscles, and will not be a good predictor of how hard your rowing muscles are working.

I do 3x UT1 and once a week longer intervals (3x2000m with 4min rest). I am 35 yo, 6.2ft and 180lb. My best 2k time so far is 7:40min (1:55min pace). My question is related to the UT1 training.

UT1 and intervals are both into lactate. In this video UT1 is yellow zone. https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_seile ... e_athletes Some people teach this as good training, other say 4X per week of lactate hampers the adaptation you want as a rower, and you should do 2 to 3 hard sessions and then do the rest as long steady state at UT2. You get to choose which training to follow. Reasonable people support both approaches. In general, heavy work 4 x a week will give you the most rapid performance gains over 8 to 12 weeks, then starts to plateau. Long term 2x a week heavy and lots of long slow gives higher output, but takes a while to hit.

My max heart rate is 185bpm and my resting heart rate is 60bpm.

How did you determine your max heart rate? 220-35=185 is a dangerous way to get max HR. More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkyzCRFnhGo Best is to do something really hard for 5-7 mins following good warmup and see how high you can get your heart rate. The 4x2000 intervals you are doing will hit your max HR, especially if you push the 2nd or third piece. Every time you see a higher HR reset your max to that HR. Max HR doesn't change as you get more fit, you are just getting a more accurate measurement.

I am usually doing 45min of SS UT1 with a heart monitor. What confuses me is that even at 2:25min pace (+30sec of my 2k pace) my heart rate is all the way up between 160 and 165.

For UT1 your heart rate should drift up over the 45 minute interval if you keep constant load. Is 165 the peak you see? That would be a normal, reasonable HR for UT1. You are into threshold. If 185 is your correct max HR that is 90%, which is a reasonable to high percent for threshold work. Many people choose to do their steady state in the green zone of the video linked above (targeting UT2 not UT1) instead of yellow zone, which would have a much lower, constant HR. If you want to target UT2, then using your HR is a great way to do it. Drop pace to 2:30 and see if you are still getting drift, and breathing heavy. If so, drop pace to 2:35 or 2:40. It will seem really slow.

This cyclist is very good at explaining current research results. If you can skip the first minute or so of fluff his stuff makes sense, and transfers directly to rowing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACO9Y5LJwuo

[jamesg]

best 2k 7:40min (1:55min pace = 230W).
max heart rate 185bpm and rest rate 60bpm.
I usually do 45min UT1 with a heart monitor.
at 2:25min pace (115W) hr 160 - 165.

Maybe 45' UT1 is too long. I've started a Level 3, 5 day Interactive, and the Week 1 UT1 work was 1x20', 2x12', 2x15' and 2x10'. Level 3 meant at least two prior years of systematic training. This type of low rate work is used at the start of a 2k cycle for endurance and technique.

Typically UT1 work is at 60-70% of 2k test power, so would be 140 to 160W for your 2k time. The same ratios apply to the rating: UT2 up to 20, UT1 up to 23, for a 2k at 32-33.

Higher ratings are less efficient due to inertial power losses on a stationary erg, and can also make it hard to use the legs correctly, especially if drag is too high.

[dabatey]

As said if you have worked out the 185bpm max from a formula chances are it's well out. I'm 49 and my max is 182bpm(seen during ramp test) and the 220-age gives me a max of 171bpm.

If you feel comfortable I'd ignore the heartrate and just carry on as you have been. I'd agree that 45 minutes continuous is at the upper end of UT1 training length, so if you are absolutely wasted at the end that might be a sign to slow down.

Or do a ramp test to find your true maximum and then work out heart rate percentages using that and your resting heartrate (Heart Rate Reserve or HRR). Ramp test is just start at a steady pace, keep gradually upping the pace every so often (Every 4 minutes for 7 steps is stipulated in at least 1 protocol) until your almost pooped then give a burst of maximum for as long as you can and note the maximum HR achieved.

[Carl Watts]

The following is a link to your Bible if you just started rowing.

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

Enter your resting HR and your Max HR and bang you have all your trainings bands done for you.

Print it out and hang it by your rower.

[Tsnor]

The following is a link to your Bible if you just started rowing.

https://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum ... calculator

Enter your resting HR and your Max HR and bang you have all your trainings bands done for you.

Print it out and hang it by your rower.

Use this particular calculator with caution. For example the first zone says says 55-70% of MHR (maximum heart rate) but it is not. Instead it is calculating a significantly higher answer. New rowers with higher resting heart rates end up with very high recommendations.

Number example:

Goto the calculator and enter 100 and 200 for resting and max heart rate. (numbers picked to make the math easy, you can choose your own, the results follow the same trend until you pick a resting heart rate of 0).

Look at the results for the calculated UT2 band, which is given as 55% to 70% of MHR is the table.
We know 55% to 70% of 200 is 110-140 BPM. (0.55 times 200 = 110, 0.7 times 200 = 140)
But the calculator produces "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 155 bpm to 170 bpm with a mean of 163 bpm."
And the high end of the recommended range, 170 BPM, is 85% of 200 and way out of where you want to be for a UT2 row.

Why does the calculator produce 155-170 as the answer? Because it is using HEART RATE RESERVE not MAX HEART RATE, and applying the percent to that.
HRR = MHR minus resting heart rate = 200 - 100 = 100
Calculated range is Resting HR plus 70% (HRR) = 100 + 70%(100) = 170.

Second concern with these calculations. You do *NOT* want to train at the edge of a zone. The upper edge of one zone is the bottom of the next zone. Take 145 BPM as the correctly calculated top of UT2 and bottom of UT1. If you are doing 145 BPM then you are doing the slowest UT1 workout. UT1 workouts build lactate causing ANS stress. That is not what you want for a UT2 workout, but the point is also the highest point in the UT2 range. Given a range people choose the highest number. We all do. Calculators like this enable people to work into the grey zone while thinking they are doing long/slow endurance work. No safety net of what to look for if the numbers are wrong. And the high end of the range will be wrong for some people, that's why there is a range.

Finally, as you get very fit things change. Your max heart rate stays the same. Your zones creep up to higher heart rate (your lactate number stays under 2 mm/l for a both higher heart rate and higher output level) so percent of MHR in zone 1 is higher for a well conditioned athlete. Also as you get more fit your resting heart rate falls. Structurally, a predictor based on HRR will overestimate the safe range for unconditioned novices with high resting heart rates and lower zone %MHR, and underestimate for conditioned athletes.

Calculators like this one need to produce safe middle of range numbers and need to crisply describe the cross checks needed so outliers can adjust. (e.g heart rate drift, conversation test) Without those, it's like using 220-age.

[jamesg]

That table is word for word Terry O'Neill's work that's been around since the last century. It uses Karvonen (Range), what else. Not by chance it was shown in the Interactive tables, which all started with a 2k test and at various levels, these defined by how many years had already been spent in systematic training. So not for beginners.

The first thing begnnners do is learn to row, which doesn't take much mileage; otherwise they remain beginners.

[dabatey]

I used the Freespirit calculator (as shown by Carl) to work out my zones without having to get the calculator out precisely because it uses Heart Rate Reserve. OP, google is your friend to research whether to use Max HR percentages or HRR percentages. My research very heavily indicated to use HRR.

[Tsnor]

I used the Freespirit calculator (as shown by Carl) to work out my zones without having to get the calculator out precisely because it uses Heart Rate Reserve. OP, google is your friend to research whether to use Max HR percentages or HRR percentages. My research very heavily indicated to use HRR.

Both are attempting to pick lactate threshold without doing lactate test.

Out of interest, can you look at a few of your long/slow workout's heart rate data at the high point picked by this tool? See if you are seeing heart rate drift, or are dropping your splits to stay at the same heart rate. Both are indicators that you are at too high a HR to avoid lactate. If you'd like to post a workout here , great.

Here is an example of what national team coaches tell elite athletes (as repeated by the athlete, don't confuse the athlete with the source of the training plan)
(1) You got sick because you work too hard. Especially driving your slow pieces too hard.
(2) Cut back to 65% of max heart rate. For this sub-6:00 2K rower that started above a 2:00 split.
(3) keep the long slow workouts slow. Don't creep into the harder ranges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKMG__UVQo

Here for example is HR drift from Forza11's recent post. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=203032 It's fine and expected in a Ut1 or higher workout. It's not what you should see when operating at the HR predicted by a tool for UT2.

Time Meters Pace S/M Heart
47:56.6 10,000m 2:23.8 19 135
9:18.3 2,000m 2:19.5 19 123
9:41.8 4,000m 2:25.4 19 123
10:08.6 6,000m 2:32.1 20 141
9:31.5 8,000m 2:22.8 21 139
9:16.3 10,000m 2:19.0 21 151

For me the tool predicts "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 143 bpm with a mean of 134 bpm."
I tried very hard to make 140 work, clear no-go for me. 125 is where I landed. Using 143 without crosschecks I'd end up like that athlete above and not knowing why.

[Dangerscouse]

Choosing a SS pace is always difficult when you're making the decision yourself. You're inclined to push it a little (or possibly a lot) more than you should as a guilt inducingly slow pace doesn't sit right with your ego.

I tried to use HRR very briefly but despite it reducing my HR% down significantly, I didn't feel that it was properly representing my effort, like the way max HR does: this correlates well with my RPE. The issue is that you can convince yourself that a (too fast) pace using HRR is still under 70%, but, in my case, this would be almost 80% of MHR, and that's not a very sustainable plan for me, especially if that creeps into 72-75% of HRR.

It's also important to note that HR can be quite fickle and affected by quite a lot of factors eg adrenaline, heat, thirst, tiredness etc so it's not an absolute target and it's more of a guide.

[jamesg]

What confuses me is that even at 2:25min pace (+30sec off my 2k pace) my heart rate is all the way up between 160 and 165. This seems to be not the norm based on what I have read here and I would expect a lower heart rate.

You need to get fit by learning to row and then rowing.

The basic engineering in rowing suggests we develop a good stroke that will be effective when used for low rate training so that if needed, we can go long distances without quality loss. Afloat your coach will require this. Ashore, we do it.

Rowing is done by pulling long strokes using the legs, with a high but repeatable average force, as to our physical capability. Doing this needs a specific style which engages the legs and hips, where most of our muscle is.

The values of the length and force determine the amount of work in each stroke.

This work and the number of strokes per minute (rating) determine the Power.

For example if you pull 45 kg and 1.1m net length, the work per stroke is 45g x 1.1 = 485 Nm.

The Power at rating 20 is then 485 x 20/60 = 162W (1 Watt = 1 Nm/s).

Once you have developed that stroke (or any other, as you prefer) you can adjust the Rating (strokes per minute) to get the HR (or the Power, or anything else), where you want it.

If you do long pieces, HR will continue to drift up. If you don't want that, stop for 2-3 minutes, go again. Or go slower. Normally UT2 work is continuous (30 to 50'), UT1 long intervals (2x10' to 2x19 to 4x10).

We can use Ergdata to see the average force; the length reading seems to be somehow "corrected", adding about 10cm to the net length, but the Watts reading is reliable.


With this method, based on the idea that rowing is a sport that has to be learnt and then done to have any training effect, we distinguish clearly WHAT we are training (the stroke, our strength and our endurance), from HOW we train (using a substantial stroke but at ratings and HR that do not lead to excess fatigue).

If you use HR as governor, you'll find it increasingly dfficult to get the HR up to the number you want.

[dabatey]

I used the Freespirit calculator (as shown by Carl) to work out my zones without having to get the calculator out precisely because it uses Heart Rate Reserve. OP, google is your friend to research whether to use Max HR percentages or HRR percentages. My research very heavily indicated to use HRR.

Both are attempting to pick lactate threshold without doing lactate test.

Out of interest, can you look at a few of your long/slow workout's heart rate data at the high point picked by this tool? See if you are seeing heart rate drift, or are dropping your splits to stay at the same heart rate. Both are indicators that you are at too high a HR to avoid lactate. If you'd like to post a workout here , great.

Here is an example of what national team coaches tell elite athletes (as repeated by the athlete, don't confuse the athlete with the source of the training plan)
(1) You got sick because you work too hard. Especially driving your slow pieces too hard.
(2) Cut back to 65% of max heart rate. For this sub-6:00 2K rower that started above a 2:00 split.
(3) keep the long slow workouts slow. Don't creep into the harder ranges.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKMG__UVQo

Here for example is HR drift from Forza11's recent post. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=203032 It's fine and expected in a Ut1 or higher workout. It's not what you should see when operating at the HR predicted by a tool for UT2.

Time Meters Pace S/M Heart
47:56.6 10,000m 2:23.8 19 135
9:18.3 2,000m 2:19.5 19 123
9:41.8 4,000m 2:25.4 19 123
10:08.6 6,000m 2:32.1 20 141
9:31.5 8,000m 2:22.8 21 139
9:16.3 10,000m 2:19.0 21 151

For me the tool predicts "Your UT2 band is a heart rate of 125 bpm to 143 bpm with a mean of 134 bpm."
I tried very hard to make 140 work, clear no-go for me. 125 is where I landed. Using 143 without crosschecks I'd end up like that athlete above and not knowing why.

I'm not after any sort of argument. Which is why I pointed the OP to google where they can look for themselves, pull up plenty of scientific references, and make up their own mind. For my part, once I got past my first couple of months, my HR has referenced pretty well using HRR to the UT1/2 zones prescribed in the C2 Training Version 2 document with its associated paces and stroke rates prescribed by 2K time. There was however a large discrepancy at first.

[ukaserex]

OP,
I think you're over-thinking it. Some of the guys in here are genetic anomalies, and have been rowing for decades. Their resting heart rates may be in the high 30's or low 40's. So, a UT1 HR of 125 for them isn't out of the question. It all depends.


Make sure your form is good, and just enjoy the row.

You can sweat HR training if you like, but it may be helpful to identify your goals. Remember it's a bit of a pyramid. Some days easy, some days hard. A lot depends on your diet, sleep and other external factors, like climate.