Leg Drive

[Tsnor]

You're most likely sliding your butt (shooting the slide) and then pulling with your arms and back. Basically your legs are doing nothing. You need to practice just the leg drive. There are videos to help with that.

THIS. ^^

As you fix this watch the split time or watts or calories display. You will see a sudden performance improvement when you are stroking correctly and handle moves with seat. It won't be subtle.

[Citroen]

You're most likely sliding your butt (shooting the slide) and then pulling with your arms and back. Basically your legs are doing nothing. You need to practice just the leg drive. There are videos to help with that.

THIS. ^^

As you fix this watch the split time or watts or calories display. You will see a sudden performance improvement when you are stroking correctly and handle moves with seat. It won't be subtle.

The best way to see if you're bum shoving is to look at the force curve. It needs to look like a left leaning hill with no kinks.



https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... orce-curve
https://www.concept2.com/news/improving ... orce-curve

[jvander76]

A late follow up: it may be that the problem was in the gym rower I was using. Now that I have a new row erg in my home, I can see the difference. I now have a sense of work being done on the leg drive. I also went from a setting if 7 on the damper to 4 with the same effect. I'm pretty sure that proper maintenance on the rower in my gym was lacking.

[Citroen]

I'm pretty sure that proper maintenance on the rower in my gym was lacking.

It was probably full of dust and cruft and the chain probably hadn't seen any oil since it left the factory, if my experience with badly maintained gym machines is anything to go by.

[dabatey]

I didn't really feel anything in my legs until I started to up the pace and pull a bit harder a few weeks in. I think also there's a perception thing where the tension in your core/hanging arms during the initial drive makes it 'feel' as if you aren't using the legs that much whereas actually you've pretty much got to be using the legs. Also, if you are pulling relatively lower power when starting then the need for initial leg drive speed probably isn't there quite as much.

So sometimes nothing to do with form, nor the rower maintenance, just a short wait until getting to the point where your fitness/mind lets you pull a bit harder and really kick into that leg drive a bit more. I think that's what it was for me anyway.

There's certainly a learning curve on the rower for knowing your limits and learning how to push harder, on top of getting the form correct. A lot different from the likes of running where half the work is done for you with one foot falling in front of the other; a bit more psychological, maybe why rowers tend to be free in gyms.

[mitchel674]

This is a great example of why we constantly tell folks to check the drag factor on the PM and not just rely on where the damper handle is positioned. Highly likely that neglected gym machine was full of dust. Now with a clean, new machine, the OP is likely at reasonable drag factors for his workouts.

[ukaserex]

In ergdata you can see peak and average force, stroke length and speed, which could help. Half your weight, 70% of height and speed 2m/s should be seen. As for technique, make sure your slide is not too far forward, keeping the knee angle open. The recovery sequence (arms, swing, slide) is critical.

Results depend of course on age, size and sex; 2W/kg will keep you fit.

Interesting metrics. How did you settle upon these values? (half your weight, 70% of height) And not sure what you're intending by speed 2m/s.

Can you elaborate?

[jamesg]

Those are just numbers I used myself at age 60-65, for low rate training. I could then do a ½M within 90', which is 160W, weight around 80 kg. So fairly easy, but enough to get fit.

Ergdata shows speed among other numbers, and is the handle speed, average during the pull.

[jackarabit]

In ergdata you can see peak and average force, stroke length and speed, which could help. Half your weight, 70% of height and speed 2m/s should be seen. As for technique, make sure your slide is not too far forward, keeping the knee angle open. The recovery sequence (arms, swing, slide) is critical.

Results depend of course on age, size and sex; 2W/kg will keep you fit.

Interesting metrics. How did you settle upon these values? (half your weight, 70% of height) And not sure what you're intending by speed 2m/s.

Can you elaborate?

He customarily sez 2 watts per kilo of fit weight, ‘fit’ referencing the highest weight color coded ‘acceptable’ that you see on the BMI chart (indexed to your age on one axis and height on the other) immediately preceding the intersection with the next color block which screams overweight. So your fit weight is effectively your maximum ideal weight thence the 2 watts per kilo training power threshold for general fitness.

70% of height is often suggested as a ballpark estimate of drive length for most rowers. Half your weight? Speed 2m per stroke? Now see those two terms clarified. What a relief.

[jamesg]

Those numbers pan out as follows and seem to offer a good start:

At 180 height and 75 kg:

1.80*0.7 x 75/2 * 9.81 * 20/60 = 155 W; at rating 20.

155W/20spm = almost 8 Watt-minutes per stroke. The same stroke at rate 30 would give a 2k time 7:30.

Typically 155 W is aerobic so should give an increase in HR of about 155/2 = 77; plus Rest HR 60 = 137.

The overall heat rate corresponding to 155W is 4*155*0.86=533 kCal/h, considering 25% efficiency.

[ukaserex]

Those numbers pan out as follows and seem to offer a good start:

At 180 height and 75 kg:

1.80*0.7 x 75/2 * 9.81 * 20/60 = 155 W; at rating 20.

155W/20spm = almost 8 Watt-minutes per stroke. The same stroke at rate 30 would give a 2k time 7:30.

Typically 155 W is aerobic so should give an increase in HR of about 155/2 = 77; plus Rest HR 60 = 137.

The overall heat rate corresponding to 155W is 4*155*0.86=533 kCal/h, considering 25% efficiency.

thanks for the clarification.

The Watt-minutes per stroke, I've seen identified within these forums as "work", and in some circles SPI, for "Stroke Power Index".
A couple years ago, when I was in peak condition, I'd seen my 2k effort give a tidy 10+ watts per stroke. Now, if I could have just hit 11, I might have gotten somewhere! Sadly, I think those days are behind me. Getting stronger past 50 years seems to be harder than I would have thought. Perhaps just more practice in eating clean and rowing smart!

Just looking at my last session, I see my stroke length is 1.27M. At just a smidge less than 5'10", the folks at Google give me a conversion to 177 cm.
So, 1.24 theoretical compared to 1.27 actual. Close enough, I'd guess.

Again, thanks for the clarification, I often find myself over-thinking on such things, but the numbers interest me, and often take my mind away from the discomfort of challenging rows.

[jackarabit]

Now that’s granular! Gonna need to regrease my (brain) pan to catch the glint of understanding.

[Herryashley22]

Thank you. I will have my own C2 rower in a couple weeks. So, finally, no more gym workouts! It will be nice to start fresh with a clean, properly functioning machine complete with my own PM5 to record data.

[Herryashley22]

thanks for the clarification.
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