Am I sick??? shocked by my numbers

[jamesg]

Without that lactate threshold test, im just a bit lost on how to figure out what speed to row so that I dont row too hard.

It's very simple, when rowing: go as fast as possible, but keep the rating down, even to 20. The only problem is you may need to learn to row.

[Dangerscouse]

Just goes to show how different individuals can be, and how the respond to training stress.

But I simply cannot ignore the detailed mountain of evidence, with regards to how the best in the world train. There is a lot of data now, since elite athletes wear devices all the time now.

One of the best XC skiers of all time, for example, they pulled her data, and looked at her percentages by training zone and she was 90% zone 1. This pattern repeats everywhere.

So before making an assumption that im an outlier, I gotta at least test the most proven method for endurance training based on decades of science and what actual elite endurance athletes do.

If it fails for me too... then ill try something else. I strongly suspect im a mostly fast twitch muscle guy. Im very quick and explosive but naturally have shit cardio.

But I really really want a far superior cardio base, and thats what im gonna work on now.

Tried to row an hour this morning, but the damn dogs woke me up at 3am to pee, and im sleep deprived and feel like shit. I quit at 30 mins, because I felt crappy. Held 110bpm for 30 mins and definitely witnessed a lot of fade.

I have always prioritised chasing the question mark rather than the exclamation point, so I have tried all sorts of different methods, and I've noticed that there is no one size fits all. I have recently set PBs using an approximate 80/20 method, but I have done a lot of extra metres too, and when I say a lot more I mean going from circa 200k a month to 350-400k a month

All I'd suggest is analyse, assess and adjust as within about 6-8 weeks you should know if it's working, but as your main focus isn't rowing it might be a moot point. I definitely found to get better at rowing, I needed to do more rowing.

[kini62]

I think you're WAY over complicating things. You keep bringing up what world class athletes do. Are you world class? Probably not, so don't try and do what they do.

Row at a pace that gives you what you want in terms of perceived effort. Take off the HR monitor and just go by feel.

[Carl Watts]

Row at a pace that gives you what you want in terms of perceived effort. Take off the HR monitor and just go by feel.

Actually a HR strap is a fantastic tool for both training and long term monitoring of your improvements and I highly recommend using one.

I agree, row by perceived effort and if the HR is a distraction, simply put a bit of masking tape over that part of the screen when you start rowing. Its pretty important to log the HR results, very useful data to look back on in 6 months time.

[jost]

I think you're WAY over complicating things. You keep bringing up what world class athletes do. Are you world class? Probably not, so don't try and do what they do.

We have research on this. Dr Seiler was asked the question if this type of training used by elite athletes scaled down to regular non-athlete people. He said it absolutely does. Proved it in the lab. They are focused on finding the most optimal training. Why wouldnt I use the knowledge? If im going to commit to putting a ton of time into rowing, I want the most returns possible.

[jost]

Excellent post. Thank you so much.

Only issue is... im so "edurance weak" im not even capable of those tests.
An FTP test... hahahhahaa no way. Even a 20 min all out effort... forget it. Id fall apart so fast.
I would have to do it soooo slow, it would be a joke, and im not sure it would provide useful data.

I see HR fade, even at a pace, that is so damn easy, I dont feel like it qualifies as exercise at all.
Yet at the end of the 30 minutes, there is clear fade in my performance.

Once again, my "endurance strength" is shocking me. Just hard to fathom how bad it is.

Here are the metrics I use to find zone 1 in 3 zone model without lactate profile and where I got them. They depends on a GOOD max HR, and FTP number. Your max HR and FTP need to be good lower bound numbers (e.g. your max HR might be 180, but you've only seen 172 so you should be using 172. If you later see higher max HR then you update your max HR and rerun your numbers. Max HR will not change with fitness levels. Max HR is observed max HR on the rower, not something from a formula.

Zone 1 target 70% of max HR
Zone 1 cannot exceed 75% of max HR.
Zone 1 the population average for zone 1 max might be 78% of max for lactate curve inflection, that will be too high for 1/2 the people trying it.

Heart rate reserve HRR depends on knowing both max HR and resting HR. Resting HR moves quite a bit with fitness level, illness, how hard you worked 2 days ago, etc. I use these as a cross check, but don't trust them as much. My fitbit measured resting HR is 5-7 points higher than the 2.5 minute snapshot I get each morning from EliteHRV. That's a lot of error.

Compute HRR as Max HR minus resting HR.

Zone 1 target is resting HR + 60% of HRR.
Zone 1 cannot exceed is resting HR + 70% of HRR. I've seen 75% here, but that comes out high for me compared to other approaches

FTP power (wattage based approach). Find your current 1 hour max power on the rower. Or use 95% of your 20 minute max power on the rower. (if you are strong but weak aerobically the 95% of 20 min max will overstate FTP. Rower FTP is less than Bike FTP (your body does the same wattage, the rower is less efficient than the bike so you see a lower wattage on the rower than the bike).

zone 1 target 70% FTP
zone 1 cannot exceed 75% FTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n-nnRbFBs at 4:08. But great video to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l1qUft ... ning-guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U&t=19s

I initially used 140 for my personal zone 1 HR target, a very bad number that gave bad results. I am currently targeting around 125 with cannot exceed at 130. It's working better. I got the 140 by using all the formula I could find then picking the highest number because it still felt too slow. Don't do that. Volume was about 60K/week rowing with 2 rowing interval sessions/week plus 1 long bike/week. I'm OTW now and not erging much so much harder to control.

Hear Rate DRIFT is a great cross check on zone 1 heartrate. If you row at constant pace you should see a flat HR over the entire piece in zone 1. Go real slow, find the flat curve then walk it up until you see it bend, then drop back it bit.

[Steve1960VA]

I, too, recently decided to begin using my rower, again, as my feet were protesting, from the, nearly daily, 2-hour mountain lake-trail walks I enjoy. Have decided to work toward dividing time, equally, eventually, between walking and erging, aiming at 2 hours, total, per day, of these activities.

So, as a point of reference, from a 61YO (don't know where, within the "50s", jost is):

Have been back at it for only about a week but, this morning, I managed 5450 meters in that time.

Other details:

No idea of anything heartrate related.
Row, with mouth closed
Light sweat, by end of session, but not close to gasping for air
20 spm
Try to focus on form - long, slow, strokes
Damper setting: 7

It's been quite a while, since I've posted, here. Hope everyone's been doing well.

[Dangerscouse]

Actually a HR strap is a fantastic tool for both training and long term monitoring of your improvements and I highly recommend using one.

I agree, row by perceived effort and if the HR is a distraction, simply put a bit of masking tape over that part of the screen when you start rowing. Its pretty important to log the HR results, very useful data to look back on in 6 months time.

Agreed on both points.

RPE is important too but it's really useful to have both. I have disregarded HR if my RPE was lower, but for mapping trends it's great, not least as RPE is more subjective than HR: it's too easily swayed by mood imo, and you could HD on a perceived bad day, but keep going as your HR is where you expect it to be.

[Dangerscouse]

Only issue is... im so "edurance weak" im not even capable of those tests.
An FTP test... hahahhahaa no way. Even a 20 min all out effort... forget it. Id fall apart so fast.
I would have to do it soooo slow, it would be a joke, and im not sure it would provide useful data.

I see HR fade, even at a pace, that is so damn easy, I dont feel like it qualifies as exercise at all.
Yet at the end of the 30 minutes, there is clear fade in my performance.

Once again, my "endurance strength" is shocking me. Just hard to fathom how bad it is.

Don't let your ego dictate your decisions. Going slower to start with is an essential stepping stone to progress, but it will bruise your ego. Take a step back to take two steps forward.

[ampire]

I think you're WAY over complicating things. You keep bringing up what world class athletes do. Are you world class? Probably not, so don't try and do what they do.

We have research on this. Dr Seiler was asked the question if this type of training used by elite athletes scaled down to regular non-athlete people. He said it absolutely does. Proved it in the lab. They are focused on finding the most optimal training. Why wouldnt I use the knowledge? If im going to commit to putting a ton of time into rowing, I want the most returns possible.

I linked this article previously that indicates that polarized training is just as effective for recreational athletes.
https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.c ... -athletes/

How much time do you plan to put in?
The volume that elites do is tremendous. Are you prepared to sit on an erg for hours each day and row 200 km per week? Some of these olympic rowing programs have 20+ hours per week on an erg, in addition to many hours spent on a bike, and for many (not NZ), in the weight room. Do you have access to lactate testing? Do you have a kinesiologist that tracks your performance and diet and sleep and makes adjustments to your protocol based upon empirical measurement?

Also, heart rate is a poor proxy for lactate. In this article, Olympic great Eric Murray is quoted as saying his UT2 band is 160-165 BPM.
https://worldrowing.com/2016/02/02/eric ... or-rowing/

MC: So I guess knowing your own physiology is key?
EM: Yeah, physiology-wise, I’m definitely not strong on speed over short distance. Most of the guys in the men’s eight would eat me for breakfast over 250m – that’s where outright power comes in. But I’ve got 12 to 14 years experience. That includes thousands of kilometres a year at a pretty decent intensity on the erg and the knowledge behind that intensity. That means trying to hit 80 per cent in my UT2 zone, at around a heart rate of 160-165. Then I’m looking at 1.44s on the machine. It comes down to years of grind to enable me to hit those numbers.

I think you are making this issue way more complex than it needs to be. I'd do a 2km test to gauge your fitness then you can either use some programs that use % of 2km watts or you could use Pete plan and just put some time in on the erg honing your technique and fitness and see if you need anything more advanced at the end of it. Theres nothing wrong with tracking heart rate but don't let a heart rate cap limit you from making progress when you don't even have a laboratory to tell you what range you should train. You will make zero progress if you train a weak stroke.
I use this to figure out pacing sometimes, pretty helpful spreadsheet using data from kinesiologist Dr. Fritz Hagerman I believe. Do a 2K test and then use the spreadsheet to figure out your pacing. www.machars.net/ltb.xls

Without that lactate threshold test, im just a bit lost on how to figure out what speed to row so that I dont row too hard.

It's very simple, when rowing: go as fast as possible, but keep the rating down, even to 20. The only problem is you may need to learn to row.

I agree with James, so far I have had good results just keeping it simple like this.

[jackarabit]

There’s striving and there’s jiving. Planting a few magic beans derived from sports science and training theory is fun. So is accomplishing something on plain ill-advised grunt. Actualise that spitballed 8:40 2k, work out zone power from same and do a bit from bottom to top. It’s a smorgasbörd not a diet soda. Plenty of time for fertilizing mitochrondria with Maffe-Tone after you get out of breath a couple times. Take the example of Dutch’s son. If you suspect dicky ticker, first stop is cardiologist stamp of approval.

[mitchel674]

PS guys, ive done HIIT style training on my rower for over a decade.
Ive never been injured, because my form is really good. Practiced it a lot.
Shit form at high power/sprints = injuries.

Now im switching gears and only doing endurance training on the erg.
THIS IS COMPLETELY NEW TO ME

This struck me. I suspect your rowing technique is not as good as you think. When you were doing your HIIT you likely compensated for your poor form by increasing your stroke rate. Now that you are at a lower stroke rate for your steady state rows, you produce little power with your stroke. Post a video from the side of you rowing at 22 spm. Let some of the more experienced rowers here have a look.

I'm one of the slowest rowers here. 56 years old, 155lbs and only rowing seriously for 3 years. Even I pull 125W for my long steady state rows. These are typically at 20-22spm for 30-60 minutes. I try to keep my HR below 140 on these. With my 8 minute 2k, I'm satisfied rowing my steady state rows at 2:20.

I did experiment with Maffetone training last year. After 2 months I gave up as I felt I was actually training myself to have a weaker stroke in an effort to keep my HR in a very low range. I think that type of training only works for folks putting in lots of meters. I typically average only 125-175km per month.

[jost]

I did experiment with Maffetone training last year. After 2 months I gave up as I felt I was actually training myself to have a weaker stroke in an effort to keep my HR in a very low range. I think that type of training only works for folks putting in lots of meters. I typically average only 125-175km per month.

You are correct. 175Km a month is only 5800m a day average, which is way too low IMO to have an kind of effect.

[jost]

How much time do you plan to put in?
The volume that elites do is tremendous. Are you prepared to sit on an erg for hours each day and row 200 km per week? Some of these olympic rowing programs have 20+ hours per week on an erg, in addition to many hours spent on a bike, and for many (not NZ), in the weight room.

I read a paper using polarized training on untrained people, and they put in just 6 hours a week and it had huge effects. I can definitely commit that kind of time.

So you dont have to put in those insane hours if you are not elite. A mere 6 hours a week is enough for a strong adaption reaction. So im more than willing to commit to that as a beginner to this type of training.

I think you are making this issue way more complex than it needs to be. I'd do a 2km test to gauge your fitness then you can either use some programs that use % of 2km watts

Im actually trying to make it as simple as possible. I just havent found a simple way yet. Im not aware of any "percentage of 2K plans". Ive been looking around. Ill look more. No access to labs.

It's very simple, when rowing: go as fast as possible, but keep the rating down, even to 20. The only problem is you may need to learn to row.

What is the proper SPM for zone 1 endurance sessions?

[mitchel674]

I did experiment with Maffetone training last year. After 2 months I gave up as I felt I was actually training myself to have a weaker stroke in an effort to keep my HR in a very low range. I think that type of training only works for folks putting in lots of meters. I typically average only 125-175km per month.

You are correct. 175Km a month is only 5800m a day average, which is way too low IMO to have an kind of effect.

You glossed over the first part of my reply. Why do you have such a weak stroke? Seriously, I have to try very hard to row as weakly as you do at 22spm. I suspect something is wrong with your rowing stroke. Perhaps you shoot the slide. Post a video.