Another sub 7 wannabe!

[AndyNewland]

Hi all,

Been trying to get sub 7 since before covid. First time I got close [7:03] and then I got injured. When I came back covid came along and the gyms closed and I had no access to an ERG. Anyway been at it again since April. Just wondering what people think of my training and what my stats might say about what I need to work on....

Training consists of 5 or 6 sessions per week and are not 100% focused on rowing. I generally do:

1. A weights session
2. XFit style session that might well include rowing
3. Short intervals. Either 500m/1:30r aiming for 8 sets at my planned 2k pace OR 4 x 1000m r4 OR 10 x 1min rowing/1 min rest
4. Long intervals. Usually 3 x 2k. r3 OR a 40 min pyramid set I invented
5. 1 long continuous row. 30min or 5k.
6. [if number of sessions permit] 1 long easy row.

I aim to do a 2k every 6 weeks so I can forget the pain. The time in between is one training bloc. I record the results of the above the sessions during each bloc and try to improve each one. So far the 2k progression has been good:

26/04/2021 7.17.8 (1:49.7)
31/05/2021 7:09.9 (1:47.4)

I feel like I am plateauing a bit now. The training rows are still improving but at a much slower rate of improvement.

I find the best correlation to the 2k to be the 4 x 1k r4. Last time I did the 2k at 1 sec less per 500m. This time I did the intervals at average 1:47.5 so that bodes well. Another good one for me is if I can hit 8 rounds of 500m/1:30r at a pace then I will be able to do that for the 2k. SO far I can hit 7 intervals @1:46.

A couple of specifics:

Firstly looking at other people stats my longer rows are not a strength. My 30min best is 7588, my 5k is 19:27 (although I have not done a a 5k this training bloc). Should I look to work on this?

Second up I don't do any SR focused training. Obviously the longer rows are done at a lower SR but I chose the best rate for the row and it might well fluctuate. I never artificially limit the SR.

Any pointers or help appreciated

Andy

[hjs]

You could easily get sub 7 if you get your aerobic base up. Row training is/should be a bit boring. 70/80% should be longer and aerobic and best at lower rates. Nothing fancy, mostly sweat, blood (blisters) and maybe tears

Maybe search for L4 training. This makes long rows a tad less boring.

[jamesg]

Second up I don't do any SR focused training.

Bad mistake. Rating is the only thing that counts when learning to row and training for 2k. Using low rates lets us train the stroke, which is what moves the boat. Learn to go fast by pulling hard and long at low rating (<23), and going faster at higher ratings will be easy.

Think high gear: we can't go fast on a bike with low gearing on the flat, nor fast afloat with a short weak stroke.

The erg supplies all the numbers you need. A 7' 2k is a fast cruise at 28-30, but it's 300W, so you'll need a stroke worth at least 300/30 = 10 Watt minutes. Disciplined training is done with roughly the same stroke, but at low ratings so that we can go long distances, say 5 to 8 intervals of 1k at 200-240W and rating 20-22. This may take some learning and certainly style, it won't just fall on you from the sky.

[iain]

James has far more experience than me, but I respectfully disagree that high SR doesn't need training. I think this may be individual, but you need to be able to maintain 30+SPM for a good 2k. If this is a challenge then you need to do some training above this to get used to it. Of course he is absolutely right about the need to be able to produce a powerful stroke and this is best trained at a lower rating (I think his major point). I would recommend extending the rest between 500s if you need to up your rating and doing them a bit quicker. Maybe 2S/500m quicker at 2SPM higher with 3 min rest between each.

As for the training program, you need more lower intensity sessions (10k+) that you finish feeling that you could do them twice at the same pace if you had to. Ideally you should be able to do about 7900m in 30 min t ooit a sub-7 although the precise amount will depend upon your natural sprint/endurance predisposition. Essentially you are doing the work that produces the fastest initial gains but plateaus the fastest. Long slow rows will have an impact over time, but will take several training blocks before they make a significant difference. That said, many people under perform on the longer rows relative to their current fitness as they do not push as hard as they could due to poor pacing or having not developed the mental toughness to push through the discomfort. Rowing on for another 20 min when you feel that you can't breathe enough is not pleasant!

Best of luck with your quest. You are tantalisingly close, but may have to circle back a little with more endurance to cross that barrier.

[Dangerscouse]

I agree with Iain, higher stroke rates will take quite a lot of work to get used to them.

I naturally feel most comfortable at r28-30, and whilst it's easier (relatively speaking) to lower the stroke rate it was still not easy. Your breathing sequence changes as you adapt, and you will probably feel like you can't breathe properly.

For higher stroke rates, I find that the most beneficial option is to do higher stroke rates. Nothing quite gets you used to the feeling, even if the strength has been developed at lower rates. The feeling of not being able to breathe is a very powerful obstacle to continuing, and your subconscious will dictate your decisions.

[jamesg]

but I respectfully disagree that high SR doesn't need training.

It does; but that training for rowing starts at low rating, reaches an effective stroke with plenty of work and only then moves on to high rate 2k training. And no effective stroke, no seat.

The problem is the erg, where this discipline is ignored or completely unknown. We begin by shuttling back and forth very fast as if trying to produce whipped cream. Then wonder why nothing happens. These problems when noted here, usually coincide with a complete absence of data on the ratings used, as in this thread, which is symptomatic.

[AndyNewland]

Thanks for all of the advice, a lot to take in.

Looking at my workouts I row the 2ks at 28/29 SPM. The last 30 min row I did was at 23 SPM so I am already doing lower(ish) rating work, not consciously though, just because it feels the optimum way to get the most meters. The fastest intervals I do (1 min row 1 min rest) are at 31 SPM, this is effectively my max speed.

@jamessg - I've never worked with Watts before, I focus on av. 500m which I guess is just a proxy for power at the end of the day. I'll try the interval workout you suggested.

@iain - I'll try to be more disciplined doing the long slow stuff.

Any more specific workouts to try would be appreciated. I was thinking 40mins+ at SR 20m which might please both James and Iain! I'm not really sure where this all leaves me...... Rowing training appears shrouded in secrecy when compared to other sports I have tried!

Andy

[Dangerscouse]

Any more specific workouts to try would be appreciated. I was thinking 40mins+ at SR 20m which might please both James and Iain! I'm not really sure where this all leaves me...... Rowing training appears shrouded in secrecy when compared to other sports I have tried!

For a seemingly simple exercise, it is surprisingly technical, and you will not progress very far if you don't carefully consider what you're doing.

40 mins+ @ r20 will be really helpful, with most of them at a 70-80% effort or max HR (it's a contentious issue if you should train at circa 70% or circa 80%, so you need to find what works for you. Personally 70% has worked wonders for me). I'd also advocate doing an occasional 40 mins+ session as fast as possible, and also at circa 90%

[iain]

No secrets. The trouble is finding something that keeps you interested, is achievable and provides the necessary stimulus. Advice on the forum with the brief info provided is difficult as we don't know what you are prepared to do and will keep you motivated long term. Also it is difficult to know the necessary timescale. it is possible that doing what you are doing you may go sub 7 once you have got your rating up a bit with the 500m at longer rests and recovered the fitness you have recently lost. However there is a risk that you hit a plateau.

My concern was that currently you only have one easy day and one day off a week. As a minimum adjustment, I would alternate the long distance with the longer intervals and do another long slow session in place of the longer intervals. Ideally the short intervals should be after your rest day. Otherwise I don't think the current plan is too bad. when you plateau on this, then there are a number of options, but the optimum will be easier to determine when the results of the longer hard rows and longer intervals are known, as well as your previous sporting background (ie are you generally better at explosive sports and what endurance sports you have previously done).

Best of luck.

[jamesg]

Looking at my workouts I row the 2ks at 28/29 SPM.

So well done, you do have a good stroke: 300W at 28/29 is over 10. Knowing you have that stroke, you also know you can use it at any rating, and do say the Wolverine L4 work noted by hjs and also 30' rate 20 type stuff. This is what will give you the endurance for a fast 2k.

The "secrets" of rowing are mostly in the pull sequence: legs first to accelerate the body mass asap, then trunk, then arms and shoulders. Reverse order and much slower in the recovery, to clear the knees and get some weight on the stretcher, which is done by swinging forward before sliding.

[AndyNewland]

James: Looking at my Concept2 log the exact numbers for the last 2k are 28SR and 282Watts so a shade over 10.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1330197/log/54691444

I have watched a fair few video tutorials on technique but I've never had anyone actually coach me. I'm strictly ERG, never been on the water. It's good to hear the numbers stack up with a half decent stroke. I'm still keen to try to try the low SR interval session you described and seeing how many Watts I can generate. Hopefully this will hone the technique further. I'll have to Google the Wolverine L4 workout but I'll give it a go.

Iain / Scouse - I had a brutal XFit session yesterday so today was good one to do a long slow session. I did 40mins @SR18 (20 felt too fast....) and HR average finished at 73% max (I was aiming for 75%). Felt OK, did 8560m but was not really paying attention to distance just HR and trying to keep my form.

Thanks so much for all of the advice it really is appreciated.

Andy

[jamesg]

Splendid. If you watch HR, keep the stroke hard anyway, otherwise you're wasting your time. It's the stroke we train, the heart can look after itself.

[WayHand]

I am on the same journey as Andy.

The regular contributors that have commented above provide great advice and improved my knowledge immensely having read a lot of their contributions. It's great that they share their knowledge and time. So thank you very much to all of you.

However, I also do a lot of things that I should not do, for example, racing training sessions; lack of warming up etc. So not all the good advice sinks in but at least I am aware of my shortfalls!!

To help we with my journey to sub 7 I decided to do Beginner Pete Plan for the second time. A poster on another forum suggested that if you can start the BPP with a split time of under 2:00 for 5k you could sub 7 in week 13. I am confident this is possible. I am now on week 15 and tracking my numbers and using 'Paul's Law' to provide 2k estimates. For intervals I factor in the rest time into my numbers and it seems to match the numbers given by hjs in his post dated 14/08/20 given below:

hjs
You guys roughly need for 7 min.

500 reps 8x

On 1 rest, 1.45, on 2 rest 143, on 3 143.

1k reps, 4x
On 5 rest, 146.. this one is the most telling.

5k roughly 151/52, non sprinters a bit less, sprinter dan get away with a tad slower.

5x1500 on 5 rest. Think 150/51

[Ernits]

Why beginners pete plan and not the full plan?
If you are nearing sub-7, you're clearly not a beginner. The full plan also lets you assess your improvement over a 3 week cycle, unlike beginners plan. Also starting with a 5k steady state session is really not enough at your fitness level and would probably end up with trying to hit PB-s on the 5k and 6 k sessions of first weeks.

[HowardF]

As you are a few seconds from your target, why not try out this suggestion ?
https://www.stoningtoncrew.org/blog/the ... ng-your-2k

For 7 mins you need then this pacing strategy:
Meters Pace Duration in sec.
2000-1800 01:40 40
1800-1250 01:47
1250-750 01:47 225
750-250 01:45 105
250-0 01:40 50

Sum: 420

7 Min = 420

I am not in the possition to give sub7 a try now, Hopefully this will come later, now I am focusing on improving endurance.