400m of hope, 100m of reality

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Post Reply
UltraRow
Paddler
Posts: 40
Joined: December 12th, 2020, 4:34 pm

400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by UltraRow » June 16th, 2021, 3:01 pm

Hi All,

I'm generally a lurker, but thought I'd pick your collective brain.

I thought I had a shot at a 500m PB today, but was way off. Aiming to get into the low 1:27s.

I found the first 400m considerably more comfortable than usual. I was exactly where I wanted to be until the countdown hit 100m, at which point, the wheels came off. That's always the way for me, to some extent, but this time it was particularly exaggerated.

From this and other attempts I take that my strength/sprint training is going well, but that I'm lacking sufficient aerobic fitness to get myself over the line. This is possibly too simplistic a view. I have certainly let steady state training drop off over the last few months, but have done some significant time on the bike.

A typical week currently involves weights, short intervals with reasonable breaks, a session with a few one minute reps and long breaks, and a 500m/1:00r that I overdo and fail to get to eight reps. I have been told previously that this is too many fast sessions, so I want to substitute one for something a bit longer.

All that being said, my question is this - what aerobic training should a sprinter do? Is there a session you would recommend for me to escape the "fly and die" hole I seem to have ended up in?

I wonder whether something like 4*8:00/2:00r would be a good session, or perhaps 5k SS.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your time.
41y/o 71kg 5'9
| 100m 0:16.0 | 500m 1:27.9 | 1k 3:18.5 | 2k 7:15.2 | 5k 19:57.8 | 6k 24:04.2 | 10k 41:18.6 | HM 1:37:45.2 | FM 3:23:56.5 | 1 min 356 | 30 min 7110 | 60 min 14102 |

Dutch
1k Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: March 21st, 2021, 8:19 am

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by Dutch » June 16th, 2021, 3:36 pm

To escape the fly and die mentality I build the pace from a shorter distance upwards and control the pace with each increase in distance. So 1.30 pace for 500 for me is divided into 5 lots of 18 secs. The 1st 100 is critical to come in at between 17.6 and 18 secs the next 3x100s will then be about 17.8 etc all the way up to 400 then open up and sprint. Shorten the stroke in the final 100 if you have to, to keep the pace and dont care if you throw up is basically the attitude to adopt for the final 100.

So for you going for 1.27 bang on say, you need 17.4 secs per 100. So start with 300 meters and hold pace for the distance, aiming to come in between 51.5 to 52.2. Then the next time you do it maybe the day after or 2 days. do 350 meters and aim to come in between 1.00.2 or 1.01.0. This way you will learn to pace your self for the whole distance.
But each 100 has to be 17.4 max, but dont go any quicker than 17.2 or you will lose the pace discipline and blow out getting carried away by the clock.
You may find that you have half a second in hand when you hit 400 but you should also be fresh and not dying.

The only time I worry about for when racing is the overall average per 500 time, not the current average per 500 if you get what I mean.

The only other training I would bother to use for 500 tt would be 8x20sec with 10sec rest tababta, try for at least 400 watts or 105 meters each 20 secs. With that pace you should be within or near the time you want when doing your tt. It will also teach you to handle the pain of the final 100.
Age 51, 187cm 84kg

KeithT
10k Poster
Posts: 1954
Joined: February 5th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by KeithT » June 16th, 2021, 4:27 pm

It's normal to fly and die some on a short TT - as long as not too drastic it can actually be an OK strategy. All the short row training helps with short TTs but improved fitness also helps......if you are going to add a more aerobic session I wouldn't do intervals but rather just a longer steady row like a 10k or so.
53 yo, 6'3" 200#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 376m, 500m - 1:21.3, 1K - 2:57.2, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:27.8, 5K - 17:23, 30 min - 8366m, 10K - 35:54, 60 min - 16110, HM - 1:19:19, FM - 2:45:41

Tsnor
2k Poster
Posts: 279
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 1:21 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by Tsnor » June 16th, 2021, 4:28 pm

UltraRow wrote:
June 16th, 2021, 3:01 pm
Hi All,

I'm generally a lurker, but thought I'd pick your collective brain.

I thought I had a shot at a 500m PB today, but was way off. Aiming to get into the low 1:27s.

I found the first 400m considerably more comfortable than usual. I was exactly where I wanted to be until the countdown hit 100m, at which point, the wheels came off. That's always the way for me, to some extent, but this time it was particularly exaggerated.

From this and other attempts I take that my strength/sprint training is going well, but that I'm lacking sufficient aerobic fitness to get myself over the line. This is possibly too simplistic a view. I have certainly let steady state training drop off over the last few months, but have done some significant time on the bike.

A typical week currently involves weights, short intervals with reasonable breaks, a session with a few one minute reps and long breaks, and a 500m/1:00r that I overdo and fail to get to eight reps. I have been told previously that this is too many fast sessions, so I want to substitute one for something a bit longer.

All that being said, my question is this - what aerobic training should a sprinter do? Is there a session you would recommend for me to escape the "fly and die" hole I seem to have ended up in?

I wonder whether something like 4*8:00/2:00r would be a good session, or perhaps 5k SS.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your time.
my question is this - what aerobic training should a sprinter do?

Here is one answer to how to train for sprinting --> https://sportsmedicine-open.springerope ... 019-0221-0

The Training and Development of Elite Sprint Performance: an Integration of Scientific and Best Practice Literature

"Sprint performance is heavily dependent upon genetic traits, and the annual within-athlete performance differences are lower than the typical variation, the smallest worthwhile change, and the influence of external conditions such as wind, monitoring methodologies, etc. Still, key underlying determinants (e.g., power, technique, and sprint-specific endurance) are trainable. In this review, we describe how well-known training principles (progression, specificity, variation/periodization, and individualization) and varying training methods (e.g., sprinting/running, technical training, strength/power, plyometric training) are used in a sprint training context."

iain
5k Poster
Posts: 515
Joined: October 11th, 2007, 6:56 am
Location: Reading, UK

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by iain » June 17th, 2021, 2:37 am

I am no expert, but passing on what others have said:

It is normal to die in the final 100m as no sprinter can maintain a full on anaerobic effort for more than 1 min. If you watch videos of the best times achieved, they all slow up a lot in the final 100m!

You should look at what happened to your rating in the final 100 as opposed to just the time. When our legs tie up this means they move slower and the rating drops. As said above, you need to compensate for this with increased use of back and arms, shortening the slide so that if anything SPM actually increases despite the lower pace.

Also stated above, but the duration of the all out effort at the start is also critical. people vary as to whether this should be significantly above the pace for the rest of the first 400, merely to get to the pace for the rest of this 400m or somewhere in between. But the allactic boost only lasts 3-5 strokes and you will inevitably be predominantly anaerobic after this so, while it is easy to continue for twice as long, you will pay for this part of the start at the end. While some try and get the average pace to below the 400m pace this is not essential and will require you to go above target with the cost that the cube law of power to pace makes costly. This should not be a key requirement and you should focus on getting the instantaneous pace / predicted finish to where it needs to be and ignore the average.

The warm up is critical. This also varies between people. But as this cannot be done wholly anaerobically, you want the aerobic system to be operating as close to maximum as possible. The duration of the 500m isn't long enough to get you there so you need to have been pushing very hard beforehand so that it gets there quicker during the 500. The amount of recovery rowing and rest before is something to experiment with as that varies between people. You have a trade off, the shorter this time, the more benefit you will ge from the aerobic system, but inevitably you will be starting with some residual oxygen debt that will reduce the anaerobic boost available, so it is a trade off.

Finally, as you will be sub-optimal at the end, the mental approach is critical as the body will be telling you to stop and inhibiting you you need to override those safety instincts.

As for training, you are where you are. Clearly sprint efficiency and strength are the most important components metabolically, but the mental toughness and approach as well as aerobic fitness are also crucial for a good 500m. Going very long has been found to reduce muscle gains, so there is a trade off in the benefit of doing aerobic training while trying to increase strength.Which system will produce the most gains is a case of trial and error. I would have thought building the aerobic fitness for 6-8 weeks followed by 4-6 weeks of final strength and sprint training is optimal, but that will depend on how long you have and your current relative strengths.

Best of luck.
52, lightweight currently training 3 times a week after a long break. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

User avatar
hjs
Marathon Poster
Posts: 10024
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by hjs » June 17th, 2021, 3:52 am

UltraRow wrote:
June 16th, 2021, 3:01 pm
Hi All,

I'm generally a lurker, but thought I'd pick your collective brain.

I thought I had a shot at a 500m PB today, but was way off. Aiming to get into the low 1:27s.

I found the first 400m considerably more comfortable than usual. I was exactly where I wanted to be until the countdown hit 100m, at which point, the wheels came off. That's always the way for me, to some extent, but this time it was particularly exaggerated.

From this and other attempts I take that my strength/sprint training is going well, but that I'm lacking sufficient aerobic fitness to get myself over the line. This is possibly too simplistic a view. I have certainly let steady state training drop off over the last few months, but have done some significant time on the bike.

A typical week currently involves weights, short intervals with reasonable breaks, a session with a few one minute reps and long breaks, and a 500m/1:00r that I overdo and fail to get to eight reps. I have been told previously that this is too many fast sessions, so I want to substitute one for something a bit longer.

All that being said, my question is this - what aerobic training should a sprinter do? Is there a session you would recommend for me to escape the "fly and die" hole I seem to have ended up in?

I wonder whether something like 4*8:00/2:00r would be a good session, or perhaps 5k SS.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your time.
1.27 min is always a fly and die row, or any other sport. If not we start to slow. You did not give much info. If you completely fall still that ofcourse would be wrong, but ending around 1.32 pace would be pretty normal. If you look at top guys, the 1.10/15 bunch, youtube, those also die big time.

In general, two things matter for 500m. Nmr one, max pace, this very much correlates with 500m and below.
And second, fitness, 80/90 seconds is long, you can’t get around fitness.

My view, short term, do a few 1000m rate restricted 95/98% rows. Single distance. Think rate 30/32 This will build speed endurance and mental strenght.
Longer term, do a 6/8 weeks block of endurance work, keep doing weight seriously, but forget sprinting. After that start sprinting again. This works very well for strong not so fit people. And is also a good approach when you seem to have plateauted.
And last, at a certain point, every 0,1 on a second is hard work. Once you are well trained there are no easy short gains anymore. You know yourself how relative fit you are.

Dino
6k Poster
Posts: 854
Joined: December 23rd, 2018, 8:54 am

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by Dino » June 17th, 2021, 7:07 pm

Can't offer any advice but love the title of the post :D :lol:
53M HWT 18/19, 19/20, 20/21 - Team: 50Plus - Zwift Rowing
1m 326m, 500m 1:38,7, 1k 3:31.6, 2k 7:16.8, 5k 19:06.6, 6k 23:26.0, 30m 7730m, 10k 39:26.1, 60m 15025m, HM 1:25:04.7, FM 2:59:26.0, 50k 3:49:17.3

User avatar
max_ratcliffe
10k Poster
Posts: 1543
Joined: May 2nd, 2019, 11:01 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by max_ratcliffe » June 18th, 2021, 5:12 am

Sounds painful.

I was erg-stalking at the gym, and spotted this absolute beauty of an effort on the SkiErg.

Image

Sub-1:38 for 500m is pretty good going on the SkiErg... but then what happened? :)
50 HWT
PBs:
Rower 1'=329m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7582m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46
SkiErg 1'=298m; 500m=1:42.4; 1k=3:36.0; 2k=7:43.8; 5k=20:35; 6k=24:35; 30'=7239m; 10k=42:35; 60'=13358m; HM=1:32:24

UltraRow
Paddler
Posts: 40
Joined: December 12th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by UltraRow » June 18th, 2021, 2:42 pm

Thanks All for the fantastic and informative replies. There is a lot to digest and a lot to try.

First off, I am going to have to get me a proper warm-upm (rather than 5 minutes of paddling with a couple of 15s pushes). Funny that I noticed that other thread on warm ups, but did not take it on board that it might help 500s. Will also throw in the rate-capped 1ks (never tried this before). In a couple of weeks I will try again and use that as a bench mark.

Also, particularly wise is the suggestion that I take some time to focus on aerobic fitness, rather than simply adding an aerobic session to my existing routine. I have heard that there is potential for the two sorts of training approaches to interfere with one another, so defined blocks seems to be the answer, so once I have my bench mark 500, I'll spend a block of time on the longer stuff (steady state, including 10ks), keeping the weights going, and then switch back to the sprint sessions (I will try that tabata session - looks brutal).

Thanks again!

By the way, the die part of the fly and die was pretty terrible (though not as bad as that SkiErg session!). More exaggerated die off than normal. I would have expected to keep it below 1:33 ish.
0:17.4 100m 1:27.0 532 2129 41
0:17.4 200m 1:27.0 532 2129 41
0:17.6 300m 1:27.9 514 2067 44
0:17.6 400m 1:27.9 514 2067 44
0:19.4 500m 1:37.0 383 1619 37
41y/o 71kg 5'9
| 100m 0:16.0 | 500m 1:27.9 | 1k 3:18.5 | 2k 7:15.2 | 5k 19:57.8 | 6k 24:04.2 | 10k 41:18.6 | HM 1:37:45.2 | FM 3:23:56.5 | 1 min 356 | 30 min 7110 | 60 min 14102 |

Dutch
1k Poster
Posts: 139
Joined: March 21st, 2021, 8:19 am

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by Dutch » June 18th, 2021, 6:59 pm

Nice steady times there ultra, you did die at the end abit, what was your drag factor ? Did you shorten the stroke to try and keep the rate up? Not alot needing tweaked though, just a bit more fitness and you will be there. You are knocking on the door now.
Age 51, 187cm 84kg

UltraRow
Paddler
Posts: 40
Joined: December 12th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by UltraRow » June 20th, 2021, 4:45 pm

Thanks. My drag factor was 166. Initially, my best times were at max resistance, but as I have got fitter and stronger, I seem to be getting faster at lower drag factors.

I don't have particularly good sprinting technique. I suspect that the quarter/half slide technique is more useful for chunkier folks rather than lightweights like me. I struggle to keep the pace up with anything less than 3/4 length (except during the start when the flywheel speed is slower). I do shorten up at the finish though, but only because I am knackered. I don't think I ever gain anything from doing this.

I have actually considered doing some sessions at quarter leg drive just to learn the technique.
41y/o 71kg 5'9
| 100m 0:16.0 | 500m 1:27.9 | 1k 3:18.5 | 2k 7:15.2 | 5k 19:57.8 | 6k 24:04.2 | 10k 41:18.6 | HM 1:37:45.2 | FM 3:23:56.5 | 1 min 356 | 30 min 7110 | 60 min 14102 |

User avatar
hjs
Marathon Poster
Posts: 10024
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by hjs » June 21st, 2021, 3:47 am

UltraRow wrote:
June 20th, 2021, 4:45 pm
Thanks. My drag factor was 166. Initially, my best times were at max resistance, but as I have got fitter and stronger, I seem to be getting faster at lower drag factors.

I don't have particularly good sprinting technique. I suspect that the quarter/half slide technique is more useful for chunkier folks rather than lightweights like me. I struggle to keep the pace up with anything less than 3/4 length (except during the start when the flywheel speed is slower). I do shorten up at the finish though, but only because I am knackered. I don't think I ever gain anything from doing this.

I have actually considered doing some sessions at quarter leg drive just to learn the technique.
Shortening the stroke should not be a goal on itself, use a long stroke as much as possible. 500m speed is not full on sprinting, you rated just above 40, full on sprinting would be 60 ish. For that a shorter stroke is needed.
Re drag, again, not needed for almost everybody. Even the very best can’t get away with max drag. Even 166 is high for a your pace/rating combination.

UltraRow
Paddler
Posts: 40
Joined: December 12th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by UltraRow » June 24th, 2021, 2:44 pm

Thanks. One less thing to work on!

Will have a go at a low drag factor. I just seem to struggle to get a good enough pace if it is too low. Strong but slow legs!
41y/o 71kg 5'9
| 100m 0:16.0 | 500m 1:27.9 | 1k 3:18.5 | 2k 7:15.2 | 5k 19:57.8 | 6k 24:04.2 | 10k 41:18.6 | HM 1:37:45.2 | FM 3:23:56.5 | 1 min 356 | 30 min 7110 | 60 min 14102 |

mict450
6k Poster
Posts: 749
Joined: December 23rd, 2019, 3:11 pm
Location: the good, ol' U S of A

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by mict450 » June 24th, 2021, 10:51 pm

If you would take little bites out of drag factor, weekly or bi-weekly, it won't be so daunting. Eg: every week, decrease by 5 to 10 points. Your body will naturally acclimate itself to the lower DF.
Eric, YOB:1954
Shasta County, CA, small town USA

User avatar
hjs
Marathon Poster
Posts: 10024
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: 400m of hope, 100m of reality

Post by hjs » June 25th, 2021, 4:55 am

mict450 wrote:
June 24th, 2021, 10:51 pm
If you would take little bites out of drag factor, weekly or bi-weekly, it won't be so daunting. Eg: every week, decrease by 5 to 10 points. Your body will naturally acclimate itself to the lower DF.
For 500, drag should always be a bit higher. Nobody gets optimal sprint pace from a 2k kind of drag. Max is to much, but 2k resistance to low.

Post Reply