Low stroke rate - how to?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
iain
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by iain » June 8th, 2021, 3:33 pm

Nomath wrote:
June 8th, 2021, 1:13 pm
HowardF wrote:
June 6th, 2021, 11:02 am
"Indoor rowers stil have to use much of their energy to move the body and this becomes more obvious as stroke rate increase. Approximately 35 per cent of the energy cost of rowing at 32 strokes per minute is due to body movement... The energy cost of body movement increases in porpotion to stroke rate and the body weight of the rower"
There have been several scientific investigations about the mechanical energy efficiency of the body in cycling and rowing on an ergometer. They have settled on values of about 19% for rowing... If 35% of the mechanical energy in rowing would be unaccounted in the power data on the PM, the mechanical efficiency of rowing would amount to about 27%. Most textbooks on physiology in sports agree that the maximum mechanical efficiency in an aerobic exercise is lower than 25%.
Is the study you were referring to on a static erg? OTW, slides or dynamic then the recovery isn't wasted. The other possible explanation is to see what ratings the estimate was made at. AIUI the energy required to go up and down the slide is proportional to the cube of the rating(NOT Proportional as it says). As such 35% at R32 would be 23% at R28 and the efficiency of the rest of the stroke would then be under 25%.
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Carl Watts
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by Carl Watts » June 8th, 2021, 7:27 pm

Well for starters you cannot end up with a fixed percentage loss for rowing because it depends on the stroke rate.

Obviously 2:05 pace wastes less energy at 22spm than 32spm and so the waste must really take off at say 46spm. Anything sub 20spm tends to start going up again due to the horrible peak power outputs required so there is an "Optimum" rating to a degree for any given pace. This would apply to each individual and you simply couldn't produce generalized figures.

Anyone who has done a lot of rowing discovers their natural sweat spot which is the right combination of rating, pace and drag factor to get their PB's.
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by jamesg » June 9th, 2021, 1:21 am

It feels like if I can manage to row at this rate, I barely need to pull hard enough to engage the fan.
It's us that decides how hard we pull, not the machine. Point is this machine has no motor, only us to drive it. And to produce power enough to move a boat or the large heavy flywheel that C2 so kindly offer us, we have to move fast (since they're already moving) and pull hard.

So just do it: pull fast and hard; then take your time on the recovery.

To make things more difficult, drag has to be low, since power is the product of speed and force. High drag makes the flywheel slow down, which slows your pull so reduces power for any given force, and also leaves less time for recovery: so you are forced into high ratings and short strokes to try to get some work done, as you have seen.

If you use ergdata it can show you both pull speed and average force. Try to get to 40kg and 2m/s. Your average power during the pull will then be 40g x 2 = almost 800W. This is not sustainable, so take plenty of time on the recovery to drop the average to about 150W, which is what the PM shows us. Anything from 100W up can make you sweat and move your HR.

NB, as well as peak power, also important is the amount of work in the stroke. This is force x length, so the stroke as well as hard and fast, must also be long. This is best and safest done using standard rowing style, which is what the C2 videos show.
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by jamesg » June 9th, 2021, 1:42 am

As such 35% at R32
Likely that 35 was 35W as to Dudhia, from memory estimated considering 70kg moving at 1m/s both ways along the rail at rating 30. This to estimate the power needed by fixed erging over floating.

(70x1²x30x2)/(2x60) = 35 W.

Even I show 200W at 35, so this aspect of efficiency is 200/235, at least 0.85

C2's 25% in kCal sums is something else: the estimated ratio 4 between total heat rate and mechanical output: 100W on screen is 400W heat rate.
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hjs
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by hjs » June 9th, 2021, 3:34 am

Carl Watts wrote:
June 8th, 2021, 7:27 pm
Well for starters you cannot end up with a fixed percentage loss for rowing because it depends on the stroke rate.

Obviously 2:05 pace wastes less energy at 22spm than 32spm and so the waste must really take off at say 46spm. Anything sub 20spm tends to start going up again due to the horrible peak power outputs required so there is an "Optimum" rating to a degree for any given pace. This would apply to each individual and you simply couldn't produce generalized figures.

Anyone who has done a lot of rowing discovers their natural sweat spot which is the right combination of rating, pace and drag factor to get their PB's.
A stroke is not a Stroke.

When you see a good rower, certainly a lighter one use a low strokerate, they often have a very long stroke with extreme extensions. On the the other hand a high rate stroke is always restricted in movement.
So the energy wasted is certainly not the same per stroke. Yes, low rate is less strokes, but with more larger amplitudes which does compensate for that.
Main point, you can’t put a fixed number as wasted energy on a stroke. This varies per rower (short/long, heavy/light) and per rower per stroke.

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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by Blindside » June 9th, 2021, 8:45 am

In week 6 of BPP just completed first 7500M at a pace of 2:17, average SM21 lowest SM was 19 over a 1500M split.

My question is for the steady-state rows if I am able/comfortable dropping my MS further and maintain speed, should I? What have I to gain?

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hjs
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by hjs » June 9th, 2021, 10:39 am

Blindside wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 8:45 am
In week 6 of BPP just completed first 7500M at a pace of 2:17, average SM21 lowest SM was 19 over a 1500M split.

My question is for the steady-state rows if I am able/comfortable dropping my MS further and maintain speed, should I? What have I to gain?
Would advice against that, 20 is low enough, for now you could better focus on pace at rate 20. Get used to stroking 20 strokes every minute. That will also make time to go by quicker.

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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by Blindside » June 9th, 2021, 10:45 am

hjs wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 10:39 am
Blindside wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 8:45 am
In week 6 of BPP just completed first 7500M at a pace of 2:17, average SM21 lowest SM was 19 over a 1500M split.

My question is for the steady-state rows if I am able/comfortable dropping my MS further and maintain speed, should I? What have I to gain?
Would advice against that, 20 is low enough, for now you could better focus on pace at rate 20. Get used to stroking 20 strokes every minute. That will also make time to go by quicker.
Thanks.... only just got my pace right, managed that by changing my music from Shaggy to Dr Hook :wink:

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hjs
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by hjs » June 9th, 2021, 12:21 pm

Blindside wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 10:45 am
hjs wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 10:39 am
Blindside wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 8:45 am
In week 6 of BPP just completed first 7500M at a pace of 2:17, average SM21 lowest SM was 19 over a 1500M split.

My question is for the steady-state rows if I am able/comfortable dropping my MS further and maintain speed, should I? What have I to gain?
Would advice against that, 20 is low enough, for now you could better focus on pace at rate 20. Get used to stroking 20 strokes every minute. That will also make time to go by quicker.
Thanks.... only just got my pace right, managed that by changing my music from Shaggy to Dr Hook :wink:
Which one. Blue jeans, Silvia’s mother? Or? :wink:

Blindside
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by Blindside » June 9th, 2021, 1:29 pm

hjs wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 12:21 pm
Blindside wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 10:45 am
hjs wrote:
June 9th, 2021, 10:39 am


Would advice against that, 20 is low enough, for now you could better focus on pace at rate 20. Get used to stroking 20 strokes every minute. That will also make time to go by quicker.
Thanks.... only just got my pace right, managed that by changing my music from Shaggy to Dr Hook :wink:
Which one. Blue jeans, Silvia’s mother? Or? :wink:
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flatbread
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by flatbread » June 10th, 2021, 7:11 am

I'm still a learning noob with the erg, but what I found helped with low stroke rate (and I have the opposite problem as the OP -- long and low came to me quickly, it's the 30+ spm that I find hard) was a lot of pick and pause drills. soft catch with the hands, but drive with the legs and keep that forward lean/closed hip angle. I'm going to guess -- and I may be completely wrong -- that a lot of beginners lose length when they engage the arms too early or open up the hip angle too early, both of which are extensions of thinking "arms" or "pull."

I've heard real rowers say "don't pull the boat" -- meaning arms just hang, they're just a rigid level for the legs to push against during the drive. So maybe you can slow that rate down by focusing on leg drive with closed hip angle until you get to full leg extension, then swing and pull. Pick and pause to work on mechanics.

It's an expensive "solution," but when I started using slides to ease the load on my back I found that you can't row on those with bad mechanics -- you start banging rails.
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Ernits
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by Ernits » June 10th, 2021, 9:52 am

It's okay to improve gradually. If you've been rowing at what this forum considers a glacial pace at 27 or so s/m, you don't have to do your next workout at 19 s/m at the same pace. Try doing it a few s/m less while keeping the pace and see what you need to change.

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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by row_boat_willie » June 10th, 2021, 5:58 pm

I liked this video as a good example of how hard you can pull and go fast at 20 SPM.

https://youtu.be/4n91DaqAk9k

David Pomerantz
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Re: Low stroke rate - how to?

Post by David Pomerantz » June 12th, 2021, 9:54 pm

I use RowPro for all of my training rows. For the rest intervals between periods of harder work, it asks me to row at 23-26spm. To keep my heart rate low, I end up pulling pretty easy. Would I be better off resting at my more natural 18-20spm with a somewhat stronger stroke? Much of the assigned work seems to be UT1 heart rates 18-22spm and UT2 heart rates 23-26spm. I’d happily take my spm down for UT2. Is that what everyone would recommend? I bet I control my heart rate better doing that as well. Am I too blindly doing what the computer is telling me to do? Thanks,

Dave

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