Row erg stats and starting out, where would you expect me to be?

[JoeChaos]

This might be the wrong question but before I know how to set goals I figure I need to know where I am and just how positive or negative my stats are.

I've done three rows on my new erg, of which only two got recorded. Actually 4 with 3 recorded if which one was A5 minute row to test if I was ready to row after a broken arm. That's 7082m with a 16 minute pyramid workout of the day and a 2k test last night. That last one was 9 minutes and 3 seconds. Kinda outs me in the last 25%ile for my late. Or slow as...

That 2k I had average watts of 140, 27spm (I know too high but actually doing it I didn't go above 24/25spm so I think something isn't right. Mind you I only noticed my son was high partway into it and dropped down. DF started at 230 and damper at 4 but after a few hundred metres I dropped to damper 2 or 3 and average DF read 103. Average pace was 1:15.7/500m. My HR was consistent at about 89bpm throughout but did get to 93. I also dropped the pace at about 5 and 7 minutes. I basically took two 30s easy sections as I thought I might start struggling.

My drive length I think it's called was mostly about 1.27m. I'm 196cm and 87kg. My age is 48 ½. I used to do a fair amount of gym, hiking and kayaking. As a result my leg strength is high even though I've done little over the last year or so. I used to leg press a full stack on the machine at the gym and we're talking 15+repetitions in as many sets as I wanted. Upper body isn't so hot but in used to have a strong core?

One thing is my force curve goes up steeply then down more gently. What does that mean? I found I could row with a uniform and symmetrical curve too if I wanted to. Which is correct form l

My technique is to lean forward with my arms straight and I'm a direct line of the chain from my shoulders. Legs bent at the knee so the knee is over my feet. Due to my size my arms are as far forward as the handles can go and I often hit the guide frame with the bars. I then keep arms straight as my legs drive out until my legs are straight but not locked then I pull my arms in as my body rotates at the hips to angle my buddy from a slight n forward lean to a slight rearwards lean. I then let the load off the bars/chain as I reverse the action. Mostly the reverse action is all things moving at once I think. I really concentrate on the drive not the b return so probably not doing that at b all.

So the point of this post is to find out how I'm doing? Does my rowing form sound good? Obvs a guess was you really need a video from the side for that. Are my stats poor for someone starting out with rowerg for b fitness and health? Should I be concerned that I'm 400 no and something out of 400 and 89 at my age range, gender and weight class? I'm thinking a big fat NO to the last one because it's about me not how I compare with others. I mean is the guy one place above me really a novice like me or someone who's been rowing for n years in which case I can be more optimistic as I'm at the start of my improvement not a long way into it.

I used to row in the gym a lot but only 15 minutes at a time. Often less as I used to do 2k warm ups. I stopped because the seats caused me pain and numbness in the butt. A trapped nerve feeling. Things are better now but I'm yet to get into longer sessions. I am sure my 2k my times were a lot better. I usually rowed at below 1:48/500m without too much effort, often with some margin but at 30spm. My my form was as it is now.

What improvements should in target based on what I've told you? I know dark horse,BPP, etc but I'm not that consistent with training to a plan? I'm thinking workout of the day , short at first then using the medium length one later. Just looking for advice really.

[hjs]

The first part of your pace is all over the place

A 9.00 min 2k is 2.15/500 you talk going 1.15 later?

Drag 230 at setting 4, setting 10 maybe.

Rating, when doing a test, rating is not limited, above 30 is fine.


Think you should look at some examples on youtube to get an idea about technique, and secondly get to know the machine a bit. Right now it looks like you don’t know. Which is alright, you soon will pick it up.

In time you could post a rowing clip to get some pointers, discribing how you think you row is not very usefull. What we think we do is seldom what we really do, when doing something new.

Over time, giving your age height, age etc, you should be able to easily break 8 min, and 7 could also be possible.

[Tsnor]

... and a 2k test last night. That last one was 9 minutes and 3 seconds....Average pace was 1:15.7/500m. My HR was consistent at about 89bpm throughout but did get to 93. ..."

Interesting numbers. How are you measuring your heart rate? If you were flat out on the 2K 93 is a very low max HR unless you are on medications that limit how fast your heart can go (beta blockers?).

[Tsnor]

... I'm thinking workout of the day , short at first then using the medium length one later. Just looking for advice really.

Good. Target 2 or at most 3 hard workouts a week. The workouts signal the body to improve efficiency, energy use, etc, but these improvements happen during rest periods. If you do hard WOD every day you will get stronger, peak then start to get weaker. Google "periodization" if you want to read more. Or any of the "polarized" or "pyramid" training programs.

(Normal trigger for "hard" workout vs doing WOD at a very light pace which would not be a "hard" workout is HR because no one has access to lactate measurements like the pros. Given your HR data you'll likely need to go with how hard you are breathing. If you can sing its easy. If you can talk its light. If you can't easily speak in sentences it's hard.)

[mict450]

Hmmm, interesting numbers that don't add up. And drag factor over 200 at damper 4?!!?

I'll be following this thread to see how everything shakes out. For now, nothing makes sense.

[JoeChaos]

... and a 2k test last night. That last one was 9 minutes and 3 seconds....Average pace was 1:15.7/500m. My HR was consistent at about 89bpm throughout but did get to 93. ..."

Interesting numbers. How are you measuring your heart rate? If you were flat out on the 2K 93 is a very low max HR unless you are on medications that limit how fast your heart can go (beta blockers?).

Garmin vivosport transmitting via ant+ to pm5. Not as accurate as chest strap for most people but more accurate than any chest strap I've used. For some reason polar, cardiosport, Garmin and I think it was wahoo. Garmin to Garmin bike GPS was particularly bad for me. If the HR sensor of the watch is out by a few beats it's still better than one that cuts out all the time.

I wouldn't say I was flat out neither. Having not really rowed much for quite a few years I was more trying to develop my rowing. I know I no could go faster a bit.

Yes, typo on the 240, should have been 140 at 4. Probably makes more sense with that.

HR did look a bit low considering the pyramid session two days before got up to 162bpm averaging at 134bpm. The traditional running max of 220-age gives 172 theoretical max HR.

[KeithT]

... and a 2k test last night. That last one was 9 minutes and 3 seconds....Average pace was 1:15.7/500m. My HR was consistent at about 89bpm throughout but did get to 93. ..."

Interesting numbers. How are you measuring your heart rate? If you were flat out on the 2K 93 is a very low max HR unless you are on medications that limit how fast your heart can go (beta blockers?).

Garmin vivosport transmitting via ant+ to pm5. Not as accurate as chest strap for most people but more accurate than any chest strap I've used. For some reason polar, cardiosport, Garmin and I think it was wahoo. Garmin to Garmin bike GPS was particularly bad for me. If the HR sensor of the watch is out by a few beats it's still better than one that cuts out all the time.

I wouldn't say I was flat out neither. Having not really rowed much for quite a few years I was more trying to develop my rowing. I know I no could go faster a bit.

Yes, typo on the 240, should have been 140 at 4. Probably makes more sense with that.

HR did look a bit low considering the pyramid session two days before got up to 162bpm averaging at 134bpm. The traditional running max of 220-age gives 172 theoretical max HR.

Guessing the 1:15.7 was a typo as well as 2:15.7 gets you the 9:03. Otherwise, there is a lot of good advice on the forum but what you have seen is what most will say - just get some meters in and try to mimic the form you see and share with us when ready. You don't want to complicate things too much until you get form decent and build some base endurance.

[JoeChaos]

I used to back check hr readings with RPE or rate of perceived exertion. The one time I gave running a go I used to check exertion by singing under my breath a clash song. In nighttime runs in January/February so I never met anyone to think I was mad!!

I've been looking at my Garmin connect records of the two rows. I'll look closer later and perhaps come back with more info. Even in the pyramid WOD short session from Tuesday (remember I'm starting out and still building up both fitness and rowing technique) I was 52% in zone 1 HR. Next highest was 15% zone 4 then 12% zone 2. Last night's 2k was something like 80% zone 1. The 2k power curve kind of didn't match HR. HR kept increasing in blocks until the end with a peak towards 100bpm. However power kept dropping right down when HR was higher. I think power matched my effort better. I took a couple of easy sections which explains the power drops. I think hr changes slower and I'm back in higher effort before the lag ends.

I'm guessing only, I don't know much at all about sports science.

I've just been looking at the figures for the two workouts I have logbook data' for. The pyramid on Tuesday has unrepresentative data because I messed up the start through not knowing what was happening with the pm5. I didn't spot that it went straight into interval. Thought interval 1 was warm up and rest 1 was interval. Realised what was happening mid way through internal 2. That skewed my figures a bit low. The intervals I was doing properly had power at 132-151W except for the 4 minute long which had 113W for some reason. The first proper interval at 3 minutes long strike rate was high on at 28 but I read consistent at 26 from then on. HR was 99 or 98BPM until it jumped to 161BPM for the downwards tapering side of the CV pyramid finishing in 1 minute interval way 148BPM

The 2k was a bit more consistent at stroke rate mostly 26-26 but second 500m was at rate 30 and third at24. Heart rate was more consistent at about 89/90 BPM. Power 130-140 watt range but the fast second 500m was 159 watt

If you're into sports science you can get a lot of data from Garmin connect and especially logbook via the CSV file and Excel. I downloaded both these sessions as CSV files and will see what I can graph out. It might be fun to see if graphically broken down. Only fun because I've got no idea what it all means!!

If anyone does have a clue what the figures are saying please translate for this newbie!! Especially curious if the figures show anything positive. Are my power figures low or pretty decent for a 48 year old starting out with rowing? What about beginner stroke rate, pace, etc? I know at 26 stroke rate I'm going a bit too fast. That's despite consciously trying to keep my n stroke low. I used to go at 30 stroke rate when I used to row at an old gym 19 or 20 years ago. Back then pace was mostly 1:50ish per 500m IIRC.i didn't think I was fit back then but looking back I probably was or I'm very unfit now!!!

[Tsnor]

HR did look a bit low considering the pyramid session two days before got up to 162bpm averaging at 134bpm. The traditional running max of 220-age gives 172 theoretical max HR.

Seeing 162 is much more reasonable. I think the HR monitor gave you bad rates on the 9 min 2K... if you hit 162 on pyramids than you MUST be over 100 on the 2K. Garmin Vivosport is an optical sensor on your wrist -- they normally struggle to give anything reasonable while rowing. My fitbit charge 3 is useless while rowing, so I use a belt. The less than 100 BPM durng the 2K says your Garmin isn't much better.

On this: "220-age gives 172" Tons of data says the max HR formulas work for the average person. Most people are not average, 1/3 of people are wildly not average.

If you record the highest HR you've seen in the last year or two that is your max HR. Max HR doesn't change with training level, instead you do more work at your max HR as you get stronger. So once you see max HR you can just use that number for a year or two.

Use your own max HR instead of the formula else you will be working too hard or not hard enough during any HR driven training plan ... stuff with UT1 and UT2 and ZONE1 and ZONE2.

It's fine to think you know Max HR. and then later do something really hard, see a higher HR and need to bump up your max estimate. That is erring on the safe side.

[JoeChaos]

Typing on a phone meant I've typed 1 when I my needed 2 a few times and vice versa. And I've not even got fat fingers was an excuse!!!

I know it's the build technique phase but I'm a data fiend, always like to study data.

BTW how does rowing stats compare with other sports? I know that generally speaking runners get a free BPM higher heart rate figures for a given effort when running than cycling. You ideally need to adjust your HR zones between those two sports. How does rowerg hr compare with cycling and running? I'm guessing power is the most transferable metric between sports.

I believe professional cyclists put out watt figures of 300 watts consistently, what about indoor rowing and normal person cycling? What's a reasonable power output for normal humans? Jeez! I need to step away from figures, they're not going to do me any good just yet. I'm too new to rowergs for them to be relevant.

[Ombrax]

Joe,

Not to be a smart-ass, but where you "should" be depends on a bunch of different factors, and where we'd expect you to be really doesn't matter a whole lot.

What's more important is to for you to figure out where you are (a few weeks of rowing for you to learn how things work and get your technique sort of straightened out, then a 2k test should establish that). Once you've done that, if you like you can then set yourself a few goals (although you don't necessarily need to do that, you can as the PM says, "just row") and go for it.

Good Luck

[JoeChaos]

Years ago when I had a cardiosport HRM I got to my theoretical maximum HR when cycling according to the basic age formula. With it being cycling then I'm guessing running max is going to be slightly higher. In the gym about 15 years ago I used to do a fitness test on the treadmill known as the Rockport walking test IIRC. It's a way to approximate the VO2 max figure.. Back then I was a lot fitter in terms of endurance so got a very high figure according to that test algorithm based on speed and times over a certain distance and the recorded heart rate. Now your tracker can work it out for you directly.

Overall my max HR used to be slightly higher than the age related formula. I found I could get about 10Bpm or more higher in the gym using a stepper (leg pain stopped me from using the rowers). Overall though I'm starting from a lower level right now. I've let myself go a bit after turning 40 it seems so hopefully rowing will help.

[Tsnor]

BTW how does rowing stats compare with other sports? I know that generally speaking runners get a free BPM higher heart rate figures for a given effort when running than cycling. You ideally need to adjust your HR zones between those two sports. How does rowerg hr compare with cycling and running? I'm guessing power is the most transferable metric between sports.

I believe professional cyclists put out watt figures of 300 watts consistently, what about indoor rowing and normal person cycling? What's a reasonable power output for normal humans? Jeez! I need to step away from figures, they're not going to do me any good just yet. I'm too new to rowergs for them to be relevant.

If you've used Lifecycle, etc at the gym you can get your cycling wattage. Goggle for a distribution of cycling wattages, a normal person is roughly 200-250 watts sustained for an hour ( google FTP).

Rowing is less efficient than cycling, so your rowing wattage, all else being equal, will be about 25 watts lower on the C2 erg than on the lifecycle.

As you mention a person's Max Heart Rate is sport specific. A triathlete will have a different max for rowing, running and swimming. (another blow to the 220-age formula). FWIW my max HR cycling and rowing are the same within my ability to measure them.

Another way to see where you are is to look at the Concept 2 rankings. Of the people who were willing to publish their best times for various distances you can see where you fit in. Note better rowers are more apt to publish times, so you can be bottom third on the ranking and still be top third of people who use rowing machines. https://log.concept2.com/rankings

Good luck.

[hjs]

I used to back check hr readings with RPE or rate of perceived exertion. The one time I gave running a go I used to check exertion by singing under my breath a clash song. In nighttime runs in January/February so I never met anyone to think I was mad!!

I've been looking at my Garmin connect records of the two rows. I'll look closer later and perhaps come back with more info. Even in the pyramid WOD short session from Tuesday (remember I'm starting out and still building up both fitness and rowing technique) I was 52% in zone 1 HR. Next highest was 15% zone 4 then 12% zone 2. Last night's 2k was something like 80% zone 1. The 2k power curve kind of didn't match HR. HR kept increasing in blocks until the end with a peak towards 100bpm. However power kept dropping right down when HR was higher. I think power matched my effort better. I took a couple of easy sections which explains the power drops. I think hr changes slower and I'm back in higher effort before the lag ends.

I'm guessing only, I don't know much at all about sports science.

I've just been looking at the figures for the two workouts I have logbook data' for. The pyramid on Tuesday has unrepresentative data because I messed up the start through not knowing what was happening with the pm5. I didn't spot that it went straight into interval. Thought interval 1 was warm up and rest 1 was interval. Realised what was happening mid way through internal 2. That skewed my figures a bit low. The intervals I was doing properly had power at 132-151W except for the 4 minute long which had 113W for some reason. The first proper interval at 3 minutes long strike rate was high on at 28 but I read consistent at 26 from then on. HR was 99 or 98BPM until it jumped to 161BPM for the downwards tapering side of the CV pyramid finishing in 1 minute interval way 148BPM

The 2k was a bit more consistent at stroke rate mostly 26-26 but second 500m was at rate 30 and third at24. Heart rate was more consistent at about 89/90 BPM. Power 130-140 watt range but the fast second 500m was 159 watt

If you're into sports science you can get a lot of data from Garmin connect and especially logbook via the CSV file and Excel. I downloaded both these sessions as CSV files and will see what I can graph out. It might be fun to see if graphically broken down. Only fun because I've got no idea what it all means!!

If anyone does have a clue what the figures are saying please translate for this newbie!! Especially curious if the figures show anything positive. Are my power figures low or pretty decent for a 48 year old starting out with rowing? What about beginner stroke rate, pace, etc? I know at 26 stroke rate I'm going a bit too fast. That's despite consciously trying to keep my n stroke low. I used to go at 30 stroke rate when I used to row at an old gym 19 or 20 years ago. Back then pace was mostly 1:50ish per 500m IIRC.i didn't think I was fit back then but looking back I probably was or I'm very unfit now!!!

You are looking way to much at numbers right now. Begin to go by feel, and use a fix distance or time, and slowly build those up. Keep it simple. Learn the motion.

If I would answer honoust I would say you are not very fit. The good thing about this is you can see fast gains. Use the first 6 weeks to build a good stroke. That is number one.
Your talk about hf makes no sence. I bet just standing up and walking firmly over 25 meters would give you plus 100 heartrate. Which is normal. Rowing and staying below 100 beats is more or less impossible. Anytime you see those numbers, the readings are false.