Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

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mainsil
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Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by mainsil » May 3rd, 2021, 3:50 pm

I'm in week 17 of the Beginner Pete Plan (BPP) and was looking ahead at the regular Pete Plan (PP). To my surprise the rest times for intervals are significantly longer for PP than PP. I would have expected longer rest times for the beginners. What am I missing? Should I just go with the rest times in the regular plan?

Interval____BPP____PP
8 x 500_____2r_____3:30r
4 x 1k______3r_____5r
5 x 1.5k____3r_____5r
4 x 2k______4r_____5r

note: Used _ to get data in table format because I couldn't get BBCode table to work for some reason.

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hjs
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by hjs » May 3rd, 2021, 4:10 pm

mainsil wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 3:50 pm
I'm in week 17 of the Beginner Pete Plan (BPP) and was looking ahead at the regular Pete Plan (PP). To my surprise the rest times for intervals are significantly longer for PP than PP. I would have expected longer rest times for the beginners. What am I missing? Should I just go with the rest times in the regular plan?

Interval____BPP____PP
8 x 500_____2r_____3:30r
4 x 1k______3r_____5r
5 x 1.5k____3r_____5r
4 x 2k______4r_____5r

note: Used _ to get data in table format because I couldn't get BBCode table to work for some reason.
You can’t compare both plans, the beginners plan uses less intense paces, so less rest is needed.

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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by mainsil » May 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm

hjs wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 4:10 pm
You can’t compare both plans, the beginners plan uses less intense paces, so less rest is needed.
I don't understand. Neither BPP nor PP address pace except in a relative sense. The instructions for both BPP and PP on intervals are pretty similar: do the the average pace of the last time you did it for all but the last interval, then go all out on the last interval, thus ratcheting up the pace over time. Additionally, I feel that the mirror to your statement is true: the longer rest allows for greater intensity on each interval. I just tried the 8x500 at 3:30 and was able to go significantly harder.

Assuming that in either case I work to the TR/AN zones, is there a training advantage to using a shorter rests between intervals in BPP even if that results in less work during each interval.

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by max_ratcliffe » May 3rd, 2021, 6:44 pm

mainsil wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm
<>
Assuming that in either case I work to the TR/AN zones, is there a training advantage to using a shorter rests between intervals in BPP even if that results in less work during each interval.
There are different opinions on this of course but in general we should train to provoke an adaptive response and not to make ourselves feel we've just done 12 rounds with Mike Tyson (I am incapable of following this advice!).

Shorter rests make the session harder and that can help with mental preparedness but generally don't be afraid to take good long rests. They will help you work harder during each rep.
50 HWT
PBs:
Rower 1'=329m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7582m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46
SkiErg 1'=298m; 500m=1:42.4; 1k=3:36.0; 2k=7:43.8; 5k=20:35; 6k=26.17; 30'=7239m; 10k=42:50; 60'=TBC; HM=NGTFH

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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by Dangerscouse » May 4th, 2021, 1:32 am

mainsil wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm
hjs wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 4:10 pm
You can’t compare both plans, the beginners plan uses less intense paces, so less rest is needed.
I don't understand. Neither BPP nor PP address pace except in a relative sense. The instructions for both BPP and PP on intervals are pretty similar: do the the average pace of the last time you did it for all but the last interval, then go all out on the last interval, thus ratcheting up the pace over time. Additionally, I feel that the mirror to your statement is true: the longer rest allows for greater intensity on each interval. I just tried the 8x500 at 3:30 and was able to go significantly harder.

Assuming that in either case I work to the TR/AN zones, is there a training advantage to using a shorter rests between intervals in BPP even if that results in less work during each interval.
Personally, I don't respond quite as well with longer rests, I have no idea why, so, as Max says, don't be afraid of trying shorter rests but be aware of how you are reacting to it, as it may be counter productive. A longer rest can definitely be a good idea if you're able to produce a better result.

I like using undefined rests, and using a HR monitor and restarting when it drops to 100, but that doesn't work for everyone
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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hjs
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by hjs » May 4th, 2021, 3:57 am

mainsil wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm
hjs wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 4:10 pm
You can’t compare both plans, the beginners plan uses less intense paces, so less rest is needed.
I don't understand. Neither BPP nor PP address pace except in a relative sense. The instructions for both BPP and PP on intervals are pretty similar: do the the average pace of the last time you did it for all but the last interval, then go all out on the last interval, thus ratcheting up the pace over time. Additionally, I feel that the mirror to your statement is true: the longer rest allows for greater intensity on each interval. I just tried the 8x500 at 3:30 and was able to go significantly harder.

Assuming that in either case I work to the TR/AN zones, is there a training advantage to using a shorter rests between intervals in BPP even if that results in less work during each interval.
Looked at it and indeed you are right. But like I said the beginnersplan, is what it is, for a relative newby, who per definition starting out from a slower point.
The original plan, is a bastard version from the wolverine plan, and aims at racing 2k. You start out already having a base, not being a beginner.

Longer rest means ofcourse you can go faster. Different schools, You will not find 1 answer.

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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by jamesg » May 4th, 2021, 6:30 am

With long rests, we remove all lactate. Then, to train lactate "tollerance" (aka endurance), we'd have to get it back up again and waste a lot of time. So long rests is not how to train endurance. I find two minutes rest is more than enough to stay in training bands whether designated by HR or Watts.

At the end of a training cycle, when tapering for racing, endurance is a problem already solved, so longer intervals can be used for speed and quality as also to avoid fatigue.

The Interactive plans describe this practice as below. The 60 rest rate is mine; if yours is 50, you reach 100% recovery at 100 bpm:

Recovery Time Between Intervals

Full recovery between intervals can be considered as taken place when the heart rate has fallen to warm up level (twice resting rate). The intensity of interval-training can be increased by working to 90% or even 80% of full recovery.

Resting Heart Rate = 60bpm.
Warm up rate = 120bpm.

100% recovery = 120bpm go again
90% recovery = 126bpm go again.
80% recovery = 132bpm go again.

The closer the recovery is towards 100%, the more the training will tend towards improving Power, while the closer the recovery is towards 80%, the more the training will tend towards improving lactate tolerance.

Reduced recovery is most effective at the beginning of an intensive interval-training period when intensity takes precedence over quality. Close to competition quality takes precedence over intensity and therefore full recovery is advisable.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 155, in 2k (2020-12-03) 8.47.6@23

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hjs
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by hjs » May 4th, 2021, 7:21 am

Both PP and wolverine do not use hf numbers, its power based.

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by max_ratcliffe » May 4th, 2021, 9:14 am

jamesg wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 6:30 am
With long rests, we remove all lactate. Then, to train lactate "tollerance" (aka endurance), we'd have to get it back up again and waste a lot of time. So long rests is not how to train endurance. I find two minutes rest is more than enough to stay in training bands whether designated by HR or Watts.

At the end of a training cycle, when tapering for racing, endurance is a problem already solved, so longer intervals can be used for speed and quality as also to avoid fatigue.

The Interactive plans describe this practice as below. The 60 rest rate is mine; if yours is 50, you reach 100% recovery at 100 bpm:
<>
The interactives are a periodised plan (or collection of plans). The Pete Plan is a continuous training plan (https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/the-pete-plan/), as is the WP on which it's based.

From "WP notes", available in various places, including: https://quantifiedrowing.files.wordpres ... -notes.pdf
The goal is to improve your ability to race well, not to practice crashing and burning in
agony. ... allowing more complete recovery allows the proper intensity to maximize the training stimulus and produce
maximum adaptation to the workout.


There's more than one way to skin a cat. As the OP is asking about the PP and BPP, I'm not sure how helpful the IP is.

I'm also not sure that there's any basis to "long rests... remove all lactate".
This paper shows figures of lactate clearance with 100% clearance achieved at around 32 minutes. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 010.481721

Nobody is seriously suggesting resting for half an hour between reps.
50 HWT
PBs:
Rower 1'=329m; 500m=1:34.0; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:16.5; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7582m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46
SkiErg 1'=298m; 500m=1:42.4; 1k=3:36.0; 2k=7:43.8; 5k=20:35; 6k=26.17; 30'=7239m; 10k=42:50; 60'=TBC; HM=NGTFH

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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by jamesg » May 4th, 2021, 10:33 am

Since there are two Pete plans, evidently there is some progression, and in any case Continuous does not mean no progression, it means no need to stop.

I should have written all "excess" lactate.

The OP asked about the reasons for the rest time differences, and I think O'Neill explains why.
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 155, in 2k (2020-12-03) 8.47.6@23

mainsil
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Re: Intervals Pete Plan vs Beginner Pete Plan

Post by mainsil » May 4th, 2021, 1:19 pm

jamesg wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 6:30 am
With long rests, we remove all lactate. Then, to train lactate "tollerance" (aka endurance), we'd have to get it back up again and waste a lot of time. So long rests is not how to train endurance. I find two minutes rest is more than enough to stay in training bands whether designated by HR or Watts.

At the end of a training cycle, when tapering for racing, endurance is a problem already solved, so longer intervals can be used for speed and quality as also to avoid fatigue.

The Interactive plans describe this practice as below. The 60 rest rate is mine; if yours is 50, you reach 100% recovery at 100 bpm:

Recovery Time Between Intervals

Full recovery between intervals can be considered as taken place when the heart rate has fallen to warm up level (twice resting rate). The intensity of interval-training can be increased by working to 90% or even 80% of full recovery.

Resting Heart Rate = 60bpm.
Warm up rate = 120bpm.

100% recovery = 120bpm go again
90% recovery = 126bpm go again.
80% recovery = 132bpm go again.

The closer the recovery is towards 100%, the more the training will tend towards improving Power, while the closer the recovery is towards 80%, the more the training will tend towards improving lactate tolerance.

Reduced recovery is most effective at the beginning of an intensive interval-training period when intensity takes precedence over quality. Close to competition quality takes precedence over intensity and therefore full recovery is advisable.
Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, the intended benefit (ignoring debate as to its correctness) of shorter rest times with BPP is to more quickly build lactate tolerance. A quick internet search shows a short two minute rest periods to be pretty common in various, non erging, lactate improvement drills.

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