Improving But Needing a Form Check!

[Twitch]

Around a month ago I posted a thread here (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=189121) about picking up rowing again after a long layoff and got a ton of great advice. After that I started doing 10k a day rows at 145bpm heart rate for steady state and every few days I'll do a half hour row at 160bpm.

My first steady state row back in mid April at 145bpm was at a 2:26 pace and in the last month I've been able to get that down to around 2:15 at the same heart rate! On Aprill 11th I was rowing for a half hour at a 2:14 pace and a 168(!) average heart rate, and now I'm able to do 2:08 at 160bpm. I've been able to make so much progress and I appreciate the advice I got from everyone a lot.

I wanted to post again and see if anyone could help me out with my form, I've posted a youtube video here:

Age 43, 6'4", 185lbs and I row at a 125 drag factor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSYgMpTCb6A

While I'm rowing my mind just sits there are constantly critiques and it's really hard to relax and just row, any time my heart rate goes up I'm trying to adjust the next stroke to be a bit lighter, worrying about how straight my back is, does my knee go past my ankle.

This deluge of second guessing myself makes it really hard to relax and the constant adjustments make it hard to maintain a consistent pace and a heart rate. I think some outside feedback is what I need at this point. I'm really curious specifically about my back position, and if it rounds too much. I've always been a sloucher and I think that makes it harder to keep it straight when rowing, and then other times I watch videos of people rowing and their backs seem to round quite a lot too.

Anyhow would really appreciate any advice people would be willing to offer up!

Thanks!

[hjs]

Nice improvements.

Two things clearly show. Knees travel to far, you almost reach your toes... rock over a bit more, set the feet a bit higher.

Two, a soft finish of the stroke, your feet come from the foodrest. You should end your stroke more firm, pulling the energy thats still in your body into the chain. This will keep your feet planted.

[Anth_F]

your feet come from the foodrest. You should end your stroke more firm, pulling the energy thats still in your body into the chain.

I noticed this too.

Your back is a bit curved maybe try sitting more upright for a stronger position.

[Twitch]

Nice improvements.

Two things clearly show. Knees travel to far, you almost reach your toes... rock over a bit more, set the feet a bit higher.

Two, a soft finish of the stroke, your feet come from the foodrest. You should end your stroke more firm, pulling the energy thats still in your body into the chain. This will keep your feet planted.

For the knee travel I've always read the foot straps should go across the widest part of the foot, if I adjust the foot plates that would have the strap running across the bottom of my laces, since they're already in a position where the strap is a bit lower than my the wide part of my foot. Do you think I'm off doing that or just trying to learn to stop a bit shorter on my slide forward?

I noticed that my toes would always come off the foot plates at the end of my stroke, although I didn't realize how much until I saw it in the video after you mentioned it. And what you suggest to fix it makes total sense. Thanks for point that out, I think I can fix that one!

I noticed this too.

Your back is a bit curved maybe try sitting more upright for a stronger position.

I figured this would be the answer I got, it's something I'm aware of but it's been a real struggle to fix. I need to keep working on it though, clearly.

Thanks for the feedback!

[jamesg]

Your problems are due to feet too high and not strapped in, which makes you feel unsafe: the high position pushes you backwards taking the weight off your feet, and being unstrapped turns it into a balancing act. Hence the cautious pull, curved back and slide too far forward at the catch; this is a weak posture.

Rowing is done with the legs and all else must be sacrificed to letting them do the job.

As an extreme remedy you could try the style that's sometimes seen in easy races:

With low feet and strapped in: a pause at the finish, upright and back straight, hands in the belly; then hands away and swing forward, before accelerating the slide and diving at the catch, so that you feel the weight under your feet; then instantly slam the catch as hard as possible, using the legs.

This is a technique that was used early last century when Steve Fairbairn reigned: it was very successful. Nowadays we use the common style as seen in C2 videos and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dzPz0tD5I

[hjs]

Nice improvements.

Two things clearly show. Knees travel to far, you almost reach your toes... rock over a bit more, set the feet a bit higher.

Two, a soft finish of the stroke, your feet come from the foodrest. You should end your stroke more firm, pulling the energy thats still in your body into the chain. This will keep your feet planted.

For the knee travel I've always read the foot straps should go across the widest part of the foot, if I adjust the foot plates that would have the strap running across the bottom of my laces, since they're already in a position where the strap is a bit lower than my the wide part of my foot. Do you think I'm off doing that or just trying to learn to stop a bit shorter on my slide forward?

I noticed that my toes would always come off the foot plates at the end of my stroke, although I didn't realize how much until I saw it in the video after you mentioned it. And what you suggest to fix it makes total sense. Thanks for point that out, I think I can fix that one!

I noticed this too.

Your back is a bit curved maybe try sitting more upright for a stronger position.

I figured this would be the answer I got, it's something I'm aware of but it's been a real struggle to fix. I need to keep working on it though, clearly.

Thanks for the feedback!

There is only one solution, you finish your stroke very softly, instead of really making a 100% stroke where you fully pull in the handle with force, you only pull 80/90% letting that last 10/20% still in your body. As long as your feet come from the rest, you don,t pull hard enough.

Re feed high, ankles should be at raillevel. But you really overuse your knees in bending and underuse your hips. Rock your hips over more, this can help your overshooting knees. Still would say, up the feet one notch.

[G-dub]

More hinge at the hip to get your body over so that your legs are in a more powerful drive position and then to use for power when you open them between legs and back. Squeeze out that last bit with your legs

[jamesg]

For the knee travel I've always read the foot straps should go across the widest part of the foot

In your video you have your feet unstrapped and a lot higher than that. Together, these make it impossible to row: at the catch the weight has to be on the feet, with knee angle 45° and shins vertical, so that we can move fast. If not, we lose half the stroke.

https://www.concept2.com/news/foot-position-primer

[Twitch]

I tried rowing today and raising the foot plates, this did achieve the result of me not sliding forward as far but I think it resulted in me losing a lot of power and I need to go the other way. I am 6'4" with size US 13 running shoes, I normally row with the pegs in the second set of holes, but tried today with them in the third.

In your video you have your feet unstrapped and a lot higher than that. Together, these make it impossible to row: at the catch the weight has to be on the feet, with knee angle 45° and shins vertical, so that we can move fast. If not, we lose half the stroke.

https://www.concept2.com/news/foot-position-primer

Your problems are due to feet too high and not strapped in, which makes you feel unsafe: the high position pushes you backwards taking the weight off your feet, and being unstrapped turns it into a balancing act. Hence the cautious pull, curved back and slide too far forward at the catch; this is a weak posture.

Based on your advice and that link, as well as comparing where my ankle is to the one in the video linked, I think maybe I should lower the foot plates and get my ankles as low as possible and just teach myself to shorten the stroke enough so that I don't over compress at the catch and let my knee travel past my ankle.

A lot of times it feels like my knees are in the way of me being able to lean forward and I think that prevents me from keeping a straight back because I need to 'slouch' over my knees at the catch and lean forward at mid chest. I also think I need to start working on increasing my flexibility around my hips and pelvis to make leaning forward from there easier. I think I struggle to lean effectively from my hips so I compensate and do it with my spine instead.

I had always read that rowing 'unstrapped' helped with form and technique but I think you're right. I'm going to try strapping my feet in for tomorrows row and see if that makes a difference in how I row. I know when I row unstrapped and I bring the handle into my chest I sometimes sort of curl forward instinctively over it, like a boxer taking a punch, to absorb some of the force and I think that might be due to feeling like I will slide backwards if I don't.

[G-dub]

When you get a good hinge and keep it there on the recovery, it makes it harder to over compress and sets you up into a much more powerful drive position. Use your height to your advantage! You don’t need to get longer. Just more into better position to drive and open the hips with power

[Twitch]

I dropped the foot plates down to their lowest setting, that has the strap going across the wide part of my foot. It also really got my knees out of chest and it seems like I can lean forward a lot more now. I moved to sitting more forward on the seat as well and that seems to help keep my back straighter and also helps me lean forward at the hips, at least it feels like it but I haven't been able to film myself since these changes to know for sure.

It seems like the seat should slide a lot less than I have had it sliding in the past, trying really hard to not bring my knee forward past my ankle seems to leave me with what feels like a really short stroke compared to where I was in the video. I was always shocked that people could do 30spm because even 25 seemed out of the world to me, and I'm starting to think that's because sliding so far forward left my stroke really long.

With these changes I have seen the force curve go from being pretty long and flat along the top to shorter and more rounded which I'm guessing is more optimal.

The downside of this is, while I'm sitting there rowing and trying to make these adjustments on the fly, I'm rowing slower and at a higher heart rate. I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if it's just going to take a while to try and adjust but to say it's exceptionally frustrating is an understatement and by the time I get to the last 2km I'm fighting off the urge to just quit. I was proud of the progress I had made and this feels like going backwards but I'm going to try and stick with it, I know I'll probably never break 2:00/500m on longer rows but I really enjoy rowing and it's something I'd like to see myself improve at. Maybe I can get close to where I was 6 or 7 years ago when I last rowed.

[ampire]

From the video
It appears to me that because your feet are not in straps you don't feel comfortable using the full length of your body due to lack of balance, therefore your finish is hunched. Additionally, try pulling the handle to slightly below nipple line, this will get you more erect at the finish. I think the feet are too high on the foot stretchers. The drive speed seems too slow and not snappy enough, you should feel the force as you drive with your legs begin to pull on your arms, pulling them straight and accelerating the handle. Keep your arms loose while this happens. Then, before the handle stops accelerating, you begin to open with your back and finish with your arms so the handle continues its acceleration to the finish. Also I like to sit a bit further forward on the seat, I think it helps my hinging motion. You could try lowering the drag factor to 100 and see if it improves your drive speed.

The good:
Your hands come away quickly and go past knees before leaning forward
Your recovery looks good.
Your catch form looks decent

I like these videos:
https://youtu.be/VE663Kg0c00
https://youtu.be/JLyOyWls9_Y

[Dangerscouse]

I dropped the foot plates down to their lowest setting, that has the strap going across the wide part of my foot. It also really got my knees out of chest and it seems like I can lean forward a lot more now. I moved to sitting more forward on the seat as well and that seems to help keep my back straighter and also helps me lean forward at the hips, at least it feels like it but I haven't been able to film myself since these changes to know for sure.

It seems like the seat should slide a lot less than I have had it sliding in the past, trying really hard to not bring my knee forward past my ankle seems to leave me with what feels like a really short stroke compared to where I was in the video. I was always shocked that people could do 30spm because even 25 seemed out of the world to me, and I'm starting to think that's because sliding so far forward left my stroke really long.

With these changes I have seen the force curve go from being pretty long and flat along the top to shorter and more rounded which I'm guessing is more optimal.

The downside of this is, while I'm sitting there rowing and trying to make these adjustments on the fly, I'm rowing slower and at a higher heart rate. I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong or if it's just going to take a while to try and adjust but to say it's exceptionally frustrating is an understatement and by the time I get to the last 2km I'm fighting off the urge to just quit. I was proud of the progress I had made and this feels like going backwards but I'm going to try and stick with it, I know I'll probably never break 2:00/500m on longer rows but I really enjoy rowing and it's something I'd like to see myself improve at. Maybe I can get close to where I was 6 or 7 years ago when I last rowed.

Imo, and I am probably massively in the minority, don't adjust too much with your knee position if this results in you not enjoying rowing. It's best to not have it past vertical but I also think you can make it work even if it is past vertical.

You do have to take a step back to take two steps forward but not at the expense of enjoying it. If you're never going to be challenging for records and you're happy with that too much emphasis on getting it exactly correct just sucks the fun out of it. I'm fairly sure that some of my technique isn't perfect but I have adjusted to make it work for me.

I have seen some 6:05 2k rowers with poor technique and I've also seen 8:00 2k rowers with perfect technique so it's not an absolute panacea.

Your HR is elevated, at least partly, due to the concentration and mental effort it takes to do what you're doing; it's just not natural and automatic just yet.

Try and find the optimum blend of changes and acceptance of your technique, trust the process and regain the enjoyment as without that it's an ever decreasing circle.

[Twitch]

Also I like to sit a bit further forward on the seat, I think it helps my hinging motion.

Thank you for all of your comments but especially this tip! This combined with dropping the foot plates has me feeling like I'm sitting up straighter and able to swing more at the hips instead of curving the back.

Imo, and I am probably massively in the minority, don't adjust too much with your knee position if this results in you not enjoying rowing. It's best to not have it past vertical but I also think you can make it work even if it is past vertical.

You do have to take a step back to take two steps forward

My last post was right after I was done rowing and I was pretty frustrated. I'm willing to take a step back if it means I'll be able to move forward. I'm not a very physically coordinated person but I really would like to get back to doing the 2:03/500m for an hour I used to be able to row. I don't know if my form back then was bad and I just made it work or if I used to just have better technique and not rowing for so long made me lose it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt39jMYjZbw

This video is from today. I put a piece of packing tape on the rail so I can feel the rollers on my seat bump it when I get to it. That's helped me from rolling too far forward.

The much shorter seat slide and lower foot positioning feels like it has transferred a lot of the rowing stroke force from my legs to my arms. This row it felt like my arms had a much higher work out and my legs a lot less. It also could be that the overall reduced drive length is making me put in more work to row the same distance and I'm just feeling that in my arms more. It felt like I was keeping a much straighter torso compared to my first video, but comparing them both maybe that's not really the case.

[mict450]

I'm by no means an expert, but I think this looks really good! I think I'll try sitting more on the front of the seat, too, as I also have problems with hinging over adequately on the catch. I think your hard work is paying off!!