10k Training Program

[hjs]

Thanks everyone,

i'll do another 15k today and will reduce the pace to 2:14 and see how that works out.

@Dangerscouse
I had never heard of cardiac drift before and have read a bit into it. The concept makes sense. Good think that heart rate bands are just that "bands" so with a HR cap of 158 I think everything from 145-158 should be fine, right? So it's important that my cardiac drift begins at around 145 and not drifts out of the HR band over the course of the workout. That's what I got from this.

@jamesg
Is there something wrong with the UT2 stroke rate? It felt like a waste of energy to row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it.

Don,t worry about the power, don,t worry about how you call it, you could lower the rate to 18, do try to be close to 158, not way below, this means the second part of the session will be slower, to stay below the cap.
Cardiac drift is simply getting tired, loosing fluids, making the same effort harder to do. Staying cool and hydrated is important here. In summer you will notice this the most.

Re AT, forget that for now, really build that base. Once a week a faster session like 4x 2.5 is plenty for now.

[Dangerscouse]

@Dangerscouse
I had never heard of cardiac drift before and have read a bit into it. The concept makes sense. Good think that heart rate bands are just that "bands" so with a HR cap of 158 I think everything from 145-158 should be fine, right? So it's important that my cardiac drift begins at around 145 and not drifts out of the HR band over the course of the workout. That's what I got from this.

When I did my ultra distances I found that my HR took a lot longer to drift upwards when my fitness had improved, and I'm starting to see it happening again now that I'm doing more weekly metres.

It's not something to try and hit within a session per se, it's more of a sign that things are improving as you progress but it should be viewed over a few similar sessions with similar conditions. It eventually becomes your Goldilocks pace (the pace you theoretically feel like you can sustain for hours).

[jamesg]

It felt like a waste of energy to row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it.

It is a waste, but of time. The point of rowing is to move boats, so we must put work into each stroke. That's what training is. So on the erg we stop if we can't do it any more, if not sooner.

You can always use Power as a guide line; 60-80% of 2k test Watts covers all UT work. This avoids dodgy HR theory interpretation.

[MartinSH4321]

It felt like a waste of energy to row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it.

It is a waste, but of time. The point of rowing is to move boats, so we must put work into each stroke. That's what training is. So on the erg we stop if we can't do it any more, if not sooner.

You can always use Power as a guide line; 60-80% of 2k test Watts covers all UT work. This avoids dodgy HR theory interpretation.

Most people here don't move boats and never will, they want to get fitter, lose weight, break milestones on the erg etc. The 2k-test-% is only a rough estimation and for trained people who are equally strong and aerobicly fit, in my case it's not working at all, the 500m-test-% is even worse. I think training per HR works very good, especially for beginners and guys like me who are not even strong and fit.

[hjs]

It felt like a waste of energy to row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it.

It is a waste, but of time. The point of rowing is to move boats, so we must put work into each stroke. That's what training is. So on the erg we stop if we can't do it any more, if not sooner.

You can always use Power as a guide line; 60-80% of 2k test Watts covers all UT work. This avoids dodgy HR theory interpretation.

60/80% is a huuuuge gap. From almost doing nothing to time trial level.

95% of the people who erg will never see a boat, let alone row.

Hf restriction, how dodgy it may be, has at least one big plus, it stops you from racing in training.

[jamesg]

- row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it

- Hf restriction, how dodgy it may be, has at least one big plus, it stops you from racing in training.

So it would seem.

[hjs]

- row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it

- Hf restriction, how dodgy it may be, has at least one big plus, it stops you from racing in training.

So it would seem.

In the end, aerobic training is simple. Work out at your given sport, make sure you recover from your worksouts and slowly build your workload.

[uk gearmuncher]

- row at 21/22 SPM when not putting any power in the stroke because my HR won't allow for it

- Hf restriction, how dodgy it may be, has at least one big plus, it stops you from racing in training.

So it would seem.

In the end, aerobic training is simple.
1) Work out at your given sport,
2) make sure you recover from your workouts
3) and slowly build your workload.

To get fit, yes. However, to hit your optimum, it really isn't as straightforward. I would reply by saying:

1) I agree.
2) The ability for any athlete to remain objective or be able to performance monitor themselves I would argue is often questionable and the reason that even the most gifted, experienced or heralded athletes use a coach or a mentor is that the decisionmaking ability to detach from the heart and be focused on the head sometimes is a gift few athletes possess in my experience.
3) Again, this takes a degree of knowledge and skill. Many athletes just follow a training plan as its given and don't question it but I'd argue that the reason why training for performance isn't easy isn't due to when things are going well, its actually when you've plateau'd or when things are going badly. 'Slowly' is very subjective and without the right information is counterproductive.

[hjs]

So it would seem.

In the end, aerobic training is simple.
1) Work out at your given sport,
2) make sure you recover from your workouts
3) and slowly build your workload.

To get fit, yes. However, to hit your optimum, it really isn't as straightforward. I would reply by saying:

1) I agree.
2) The ability for any athlete to remain objective or be able to performance monitor themselves I would argue is often questionable and the reason that even the most gifted, experienced or heralded athletes use a coach or a mentor is that the decisionmaking ability to detach from the heart and be focused on the head sometimes is a gift few athletes possess in my experience.
3) Again, this takes a degree of knowledge and skill. Many athletes just follow a training plan as its given and don't question it but I'd argue that the reason why training for performance isn't easy isn't due to when things are going well, its actually when you've plateau'd or when things are going badly. 'Slowly' is very subjective and without the right information is counterproductive.

Agree, thats why I say, use a hf cap, that would be your “coach”. Its objective.

[Blessy]

I took two consecutive 15ks Sunday and Monday:
2020-04-06 15,000m 1:08:05.8 2:16.1
2020-04-05 15,000m 1:06:37.6 2:13.2

Even though not particularity hard to do my HR (drift) soared way faster on the second day so I took a break.

Today I took my resting HR in the morning (last measurement was somewhere in the day) and it was 57.

[(HRmax - HRrest) * 0,7] + HRrest : [(199 - 57) * 0,7] + 57 = 156

Thats somewhat odd, isn't the cap supposed to rise as my heart becomes stronger, not lower? I mean it's allways just in the range of some BPM but still, if I had a resting HR of 40 the cap would only be 151,is that correct?

Today I want to do the 4x2.5k at 10k pace. Is there anything I need to pay attention too? Because of the Pace I won't be able to keep my HR under the cap but that's not the goal here as far as I understood.

[uk gearmuncher]

In the end, aerobic training is simple.
1) Work out at your given sport,
2) make sure you recover from your workouts
3) and slowly build your workload.

To get fit, yes. However, to hit your optimum, it really isn't as straightforward. I would reply by saying:

1) I agree.
2) The ability for any athlete to remain objective or be able to performance monitor themselves I would argue is often questionable and the reason that even the most gifted, experienced or heralded athletes use a coach or a mentor is that the decisionmaking ability to detach from the heart and be focused on the head sometimes is a gift few athletes possess in my experience.
3) Again, this takes a degree of knowledge and skill. Many athletes just follow a training plan as its given and don't question it but I'd argue that the reason why training for performance isn't easy isn't due to when things are going well, its actually when you've plateau'd or when things are going badly. 'Slowly' is very subjective and without the right information is counterproductive.

Agree, thats why I say, use a hf cap, that would be your “coach”. Its objective.

True. Alternatively, I use Trainingpeaks' WKO4 software.

As for HF related issues (and I only use HR very occasionally), there's nothing wrong with overload or overeaching provided it's controlled and planned. However, without knowing the full and detailed background of an athlete, I wouldn't want to diagnose problems via a forum if an athlete is having issues. The best advice I was ever given though was that if you feel you need a day off, you should already have taken one.

[jamesg]

Thats somewhat odd, isn't the cap supposed to rise as my heart becomes stronger, not lower?

Using a fixed band cap percentage, as your rest rate drops, your cap will also drop. But in HR theory, training has the effect of shifting the Conconi AT inflexion point (on the W/HR graph) and so band limits, to the right, so higher. This was critical in HR theory: testing for the inflexion point had to be repeated since it was not fixed.

The purpose and effect of HR training was to do exactly that, shift the bands higher. We can't expect our heart to keep growing so that it will pump more blood every stroke.

Watt band training works exactly the same way: every so often, do a standard test and adjust the bands. But it's much easier to see a test Watt value than the Conconi AT inflexion; and in any case that theory was destroyed about 30 years ago, even apart from it's dodgy purpose.

[hjs]

Thats somewhat odd, isn't the cap supposed to rise as my heart becomes stronger, not lower?

Using a fixed band cap percentage, as your rest rate drops, your cap will also drop. But in HR theory, training has the effect of shifting the Conconi AT inflexion point (on the W/HR graph) and so band limits, to the right, so higher. This was critical in HR theory: testing for the inflexion point had to be repeated since it was not fixed.

The purpose and effect of HR training was to do exactly that, shift the bands higher. We can't expect our heart to keep growing so that it will pump more blood every stroke.

Watt band training works exactly the same way: every so often, do a standard test and adjust the bands. But it's much easier to see a test Watt value than the Conconi AT inflexion; and in any case that theory was destroyed about 30 years ago, even apart from it's dodgy purpose.

Its not just about pumping round more blood/oxigion, but about much o2 the muscle can take. The more they do, the relative harder the heart needs to work to keep up.
Lactate samples are needed to know where ones zones are to be found. The 70% rule is simply a rule that works well if you don,t know your zones.
Extreem fit people sometimes get above 90% and still are at ut2 pace. They not only are very well trained but also have a high % slow musclefibers. An average Joe, will never reach this level.

[Blessy]

What do you mean by standard test? I have googled a bit but didn't find anything standard. Do you mean rowing a 2k?

[Citroen]

What do you mean by standard test? I have googled a bit but didn't find anything standard. Do you mean rowing a 2k?

2000m is the standard distance for rowing. All training tends to be based around gettting your best 2K time.