Heart rate vs Power

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 17th, 2019, 5:53 am

I'll collect some links to interesting studies below.

[1] Quite comprehensive overview and interesting discussion about the adaption in the body, the shift of lactate tolerance etc.
VO2max does not react too much to training and therefore seems to be related to 'talent'.

Anaerobic threshold (explicitly defined there see (detail1)) shifts relative to VO2max (with training) and this has prompted the consideration of anaerobic
as a determinant of physiological fitness.

There are a lot of different threshold concepts, e.g.
Lactate threshold (LT)
Ventilatory threshold (VT)
and many studies trying to relate them among each other and with the physiological processes.

On average, AT occurred at 59.8 + 7.4% VO 2 max and 59.7 + 7.1 %
VO2 max for respiratory gas exchange and blood
lactate methods, respectively. Furthermore, a
correlation of 0.95 was observed after plotting
%VO2 max scores for gas exchange AT versus blood
lactate AT methods.
...All gas exchange methods except
RER significantly correlated with blood lactate
method in ability to detect the AT.
However:
Several lines of evidence have recently been
presented which refute the theory that ventilatory
and lactate threshold are casually linked.
To sum up: LT as a measure of AT is under discussion. This is quite interesting, see the article for details.

Heart Rate deflection point (HRDP) (conconi test).
the degree of
HR deflection is highly dependent upon the type of
protocol used. The validity of HRDP to assess the
anaerobic threshold is uncertain, although a high
degree of relationship exists between HRDP and the
second lactate turnpoint (lactate threshold).
...investigated 227 young subjects, using the method
of Conconi et al. (54) and observed 85.9% of the
subjects showed a “regular” deflection, 6.2%
showed no deflection at all, and 7.9% showed even
an inverted deflection of the heart rate performance
curve (HRPC).
Results depend on the protocol and on personal predisposition. But when it works for you, it is an indication of LT (which is typically used to derive execise intensity ranges).

Specifically for rowers there has been at least one study showing that HRDP does not relate well to AT.
To me, this is totally sensible:
AT is related to VO2max (~60% of Vo2max), which does not react to training (related to 'talent'). Therefore, LT which reacts to training can not be related to AT.

=> my conclusion: if you belong to the ~85% for which HRDP exists, it is a good indication of LT and one can derive the training intensity ranges therefrom (as a non-invasive test method one can execute regularly at home).


Now that we know how to estimate LT, how to derive ranges and how to train?
[2] has a good overview.






[1] Malays J Med Sci. 2004 Jan;11(1):24-36.
Anaerobic threshold: its concept and role in endurance sport.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22977357

[2]What is best practice for training intensity and duration distribution in endurance athletes?
Stephen Seiler
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/W ... 7def1b2c4f

(detail1)
14).
Concept of anaerobic threshold/lactate
threshold was introduced in order to define the point
when metabolic acidosis and also the associated
changes in gas exchange in the lungs, occur during
exercise (15). To explain it in another way, during
incremental exercise, at a certain intensity, there is
nonlinear steep increase in ventilation, known as
ventilatory anaerobic threshold (16), a non linear
increase in blood lactate concentration, known as
lactate threshold (16), a non linear increase in CO2
production, an increase in end tidal oxygen, an
increase in CO 2 production (15), an arterial lactate
level of 4 mM/L, known as onset of blood lactate
accumulation (OBLA) [17], and an abrupt increase
of FEO 2 (expired O 2 fraction) [18]. All these points
are collectively labeled as Anaerobic Threshold
(AT). It is evidenced that ventilatory anaerobic
threshold is directly related to and also caused by
blood lactate threshold (15-19).
It has been observed that individuals with

jamesg
Marathon Poster
Posts: 4226
Joined: March 18th, 2006, 3:44 am
Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by jamesg » November 17th, 2019, 6:07 am

What you describe isn’t really fitness.
As it currently stands, fitness is not measurable.
What you are talking about is “performance”... but as far as fitness goes, it (performance?) is only a proxy.
Which is just what's needed, if fitness can't be measured directly. If you think HR is also a proxy, so much the better. In any case HR changes can only be seen by doing tests, so might as well use the same test for both and see how they compare. Any discrepancies might be due to technique.
08-1940, 179cm, 83kg.

alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 17th, 2019, 6:21 am

There has even been a study related to concept2 rowers and HRDP [3].
Reliability was assessed using the break point in heart rate (HR) linearity called the Conconi test (CT) and Conconi retest (CRT) for the noninvasive measurement of anaerobic threshold (AT).
They used blood samples (lactate) for assessment (ILT).
...analysis indicated a significant correlation between the 3 tests with one another. Also, Bland and Altman plots showed that there was an association between noninvasive tests and the ILT PO scores and HRs (95% confidence interval [CI]). In conclusion, this study showed that the modified CT is a reliable and valid method for determining the AT of elite men rowers.
Can anyone assess the paper? I would be interestet in CT and CRT testing protocols.

Old man rowing has blogged about a test protocol https://oldmanrowing.wordpress.com/tag/ ... in-rowing/




[3]J Strength Cond Res. 2005 Nov;19(4):871-7.
Reliability and validity of the modified Conconi test on concept II rowing ergometers.
Celik O1, Koşar SN, Korkusuz F, Bozkurt M.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287355

User avatar
Mark E
2k Poster
Posts: 297
Joined: July 29th, 2018, 1:26 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by Mark E » November 17th, 2019, 10:16 am

A big distinction needs to be made, in my opinion, between testing and analyzing power outputs for short, intense efforts like a 2K row and long, more steady-state efforts like the 60-minute bike (or 30-minute) bike efforts that cyclists typically do for FTP analysis (prolly the most popular testing protocol at the moment).

They are really apples and oranges. For example, there's no cardiac drift in a 2K row -- that describes a phenomenon that happens only during much longer efforts -- but it's a major part of why cyclists prefer watts over heart rate for measuring output. The physical parameters are just very different. At the end of the day, most rowers consider 2K (1K for masters) to be the highest-priority racing distance, while few cyclists (outside of the tiny population of track cyclists) are training for efforts lasting less than an hour -- and in many cases the target is multi-hour racing. So the methods and parameters for analysis are usually hard to compare.
6 feet, 180 lbs. 52 years old, 2K PR 6:27 (forever ago) 7:25 (modern day, at altitude)

alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 17th, 2019, 12:28 pm

@Mark E: you are totally right.
I'm interested in endurance stuff. 2K is not for me.

The effect of training on physiological adaptions also needs to be taken into account together with your targeted race characteristic (long or short). I did not want spam the thread with too much details; but as you are mentioning:
In [2] above, page 284 (rowers):
one group performed (light intensity training LIT) 98% of training between 60 and 75%of VO2max (around LT1@2mMol/l). The other group (MAX) 70% down there and the rest half way between LT (4mMol/l) and VO2max (=high intensity training).

Finally they did a 2k ergo test (short distance)
Sixteen of 18 subjects set new personal bests for the 2000 m ergometer test at the end of the study. The authors
concluded that LIT and MIX training had similar positive effects on performance (@short distance)
and VO2max. The LIT regimen appeared to induce a greater right-shift in the blood
lactate profile during submaximal exercise
, but this did not translate to a significantly
greater gain in ergometer performance.
My comment in italic.

-> If you go long, you are espacially interested in the right shift at submaximal exercises, as the long event is done sub-maximal. It is well known that you loose this if you do to much intensity training.

dknickerbocker
500m Poster
Posts: 71
Joined: November 1st, 2019, 1:10 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by dknickerbocker » November 17th, 2019, 1:54 pm

jamesg wrote:
November 17th, 2019, 6:07 am
What you describe isn’t really fitness.
As it currently stands, fitness is not measurable.
What you are talking about is “performance”... but as far as fitness goes, it (performance?) is only a proxy.
Which is just what's needed, if fitness can't be measured directly. If you think HR is also a proxy, so much the better. In any case HR changes can only be seen by doing tests, so might as well use the same test for both and see how they compare. Any discrepancies might be due to technique.
You could certainly do tests. But, if you are gathering (and can analyze) both hr and power, then each row that’s done under comparable conditions is a “test” of sorts. Of course they’re not gonna be identical conditions and that’s why it’s critical to get lots of data points, so that as much “noise” as possible goes away. Even better if you have an easy way to exclude outliers, identify and exclude rows done on a hot day, etc.

I agree with you that this will never replace a 2k (or other distance) performance test. Not intended to, I don’t think. Rather, these metrics help get a more complete physiological picture of the rower. Not super important if you pick a training plan and follow it but definitely can be helpful for those who design their own programs.

Also, agree with whoever said rowing is less aerobic than cycling but disagree that means the low end aerobic fitness is not important. The OP already linked the research in that regard but check it out, you might be surprised.
Age: 36. Weight: 72kg ht: 5'10"
5K: 19:21. 10K: 41:42. 30min: 7,518

alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 18th, 2019, 2:47 pm

I'd like to upload an image, however get
Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.
Did I do something wrong or is this usual?

User avatar
gregsmith01748
10k Poster
Posts: 1359
Joined: January 8th, 2010, 2:17 pm
Location: Hopkinton, MA

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by gregsmith01748 » November 19th, 2019, 5:16 am

Generally you have to post images elsewhere and then paste the link in the board message.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
Image

alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 19th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Here is my test from yesterday.
Reading through some papers I decided to use a 5x5min warmup in increasing intensity, followed by a short break.
The actual test has been done in 1min. intervals of +15Watt.

Besides the fact that I'm currently really not fit, I see no HRDP for this test:
Raw data (top) and 1min mean (bottom:
Image

I think my HRDP could be around the 166BPM, but I was not able to get higher in watts and concluded I'm already beyond.
From cycling and running I know that I can go higher (had max Bpm >200 and was able to hold 185Bpm mean over 30min. a few years ago).
I think I'm missing some technique and rowing specific muscles to get higher.

If I deduce the low intensity traiing (LIT) range (correpsonding to around 2mMol/l lactate) it should be 120-150 Bpm, if I assume HRDP would be at 166Bpm, which matches well with my 'feeling'.

I will do another test in some weeks and we'll see if it shos a clear HRDP.

User avatar
gregsmith01748
10k Poster
Posts: 1359
Joined: January 8th, 2010, 2:17 pm
Location: Hopkinton, MA

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by gregsmith01748 » November 19th, 2019, 4:43 pm

Hi Alex,
I think to see a HRDP, you might need a longer dwell time at each power step. I have used the AIS step test successfully to do this. I actually correlated my HRDP with lactate readings in the tests.

https://quantifiedrowing.com/2017/11/0 ... step-test/
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
Image

User avatar
Mark E
2k Poster
Posts: 297
Joined: July 29th, 2018, 1:26 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by Mark E » November 19th, 2019, 7:56 pm

Keep in mind that the watts/heart rate may be somewhat different for rowing than other activities you've done. Like swimming (body prone, weight fully supported) a maximal effort for rowing might yield a lower HR than for, say, running.
6 feet, 180 lbs. 52 years old, 2K PR 6:27 (forever ago) 7:25 (modern day, at altitude)

dknickerbocker
500m Poster
Posts: 71
Joined: November 1st, 2019, 1:10 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by dknickerbocker » November 21st, 2019, 6:52 pm

I see now, i didn't realize you were trying to do a conconi test. Full disclosure, i thought you were looking to do something more like this: https://www.hrv4training.com/blog/usefu ... nce-sports

i.e., over time, aggregate variations in hr response at different power levels
Age: 36. Weight: 72kg ht: 5'10"
5K: 19:21. 10K: 41:42. 30min: 7,518

alexp::c2
Paddler
Posts: 10
Joined: November 7th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by alexp::c2 » November 24th, 2019, 12:05 pm

Hi all,
thank you for the feedback.
@Greg: I was also thinking that too short dwell time would be problematic. However in the standard protocol they use 30s (which i think is quite short, but perhaps they target a 'dynamic' going up in power).

Your test compared to lactate seems to fit quite well (HRDP <-> 4mMol/l) - or do I misinterpret the graph?

On the one hand, we have the 'fast' adaption to the new power level (which though my take a while) and on the other hand the 'slow' drift over time.
I guess if one uses a too large dwell time (like i read in some paper - they used 10min.!) this will also have an effect.
->I will try 2 or even 4min (which was what you did) next time.

left coaster
2k Poster
Posts: 425
Joined: September 24th, 2015, 12:43 pm
Location: BC, Canada

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by left coaster » November 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm

Great thread!!
Funny it came up just now, I've been thinking about getting a 'smart trainer' to replace my old tire-on trainer for my road bike. With the smart trainer I could establish a FTP (which I'm not looking forward to lol) and it got me wondering if I could do something similar on my erg... seems to be more complicated on the erg and for good reason.

In the past I did a lot of meters on my erg in the winter but encountered a couple oddities about me on it. First, it seems a lot more difficult to get my heart rate up high on the erg and second (perhaps not too odd actually) I just started to get really bored with sliding back and forth all the time...

My new plan (well underway) is to cross train on the erg and bike through this winter. I find it a lot easier to get my hr pumping quickly on the bike while the erg is simply more complex and demanding from a multiple muscle systems/posterior chain perspective.

So far, so good, I'm at it 5+ days a week switching between the two and could probably even do a ride after a row on the same day at this point. It sort of feels a bit like (what I imagine) triathlon training would look like but I'm swapping the erg for a swim. Did a moderate 10k row this morning actually and the idea of hopping on the bike this afternoon keeps circling in my head. Who knows, perhaps I'll eventually come to think that a run is also a good idea...
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

jamesg
Marathon Poster
Posts: 4226
Joined: March 18th, 2006, 3:44 am
Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Heart rate vs Power

Post by jamesg » November 27th, 2019, 1:57 am

I find it a lot easier to get my hr pumping quickly on the bike while the erg is simply more complex and demanding from a multiple muscle systems/posterior chain perspective.
Since the erg measures and shows Watts you can easily monitor both technique and Power/Weight ratio. The Watt/Rating ratio in particular is a guide to technique which has to take account of the multiple systems you mention.

The difficulty in erging is that we have to catch up with a moving flywheel in as short a distance as possible. This means engaging the legs fast, hard and first, since we have to accelerate our entire mass to flywheel speed. Any excess loss of length due to a slow catch reduces the length of the stroke so reduces the Work done and limits overall performance and training.

The peak Power during the pull can be 3 times the average power seen on the monitor; so warm-up must be done, and with some care.
08-1940, 179cm, 83kg.

Post Reply