"Seiler" Intervals

[Livio Livius]

So we have the famous research done by Stephen on 4x4min, 4x8 or 4x16min intervals ( https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... k_duration ).

On the bike I have no problem in doing these intervals but on the erg I have problems with 4x8 and 4x16 specially the 3rd and 4th interval were I seem to fade and struggling keeping required 500 pace. And as a consequence > 90% HRmax is also dropping. Is it stamina or pure focus? Should I focus first on shorter and more repitition (eg 6x4 or 8x4 min, etc)?

I am using these erg sessions as an addition to bike sessions in order to complete the 10-15% high intensity Polarized training model.

[jamesg]

Being discontinuous, the peak power delivered during the stroke on the erg may be 3-4 times higher than the average Watts, according to rating. This is perhaps not so extreme in cycling since most bikes let us change gear and we can only use one leg at a time, so we must expect some practical differences. No doubt you took account of this in setting your erg Watt levels.

For parity of Perceived Effort, at higher levels, do you see differences between rowing and cycling Watts?

Rowing technique can also play a part: not all styles offer the same efficiency and in any case there is lost inertial work on a fixed erg.

[NavigationHazard]

If you're using % of MHR to set the parameters of your intervals, bear in mind that posture affects HR during exercise. It's typically lower in rowing than it is when cycling, largely because more of you is upright in a normal cycling position and your heart is working harder against gravity. How much of a difference there is no one really knows for sure. Studies that have been published tend to have small test groups that may not be representative of any given person's characteristics. Here's a link to one comparing erging to treadmill running, in which you're even more upright than when cycling:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558615

It looked at older men, which I think is a plus in this situation. It found an average difference of around 6 bpm at maximum HR and around 9 bpm at a rather arbitrarily defined value for lactate threshold.

Let's say for purposes of argument that your max HR when cycling is 180 bpm. 90% of that is 162 bpm. Let's say for purposes of argument that your max HR when rowing is 5 bpm lower on an erg, or 175 bpm. If you try to row at 162 bpm, i.e. the 90% value from your cycling, you'll be at close to 93% of your equipment-specific max. Taking posture into account, your 90% rate on an erg is more like 157-158 bpm.

See how this sort of posture effect might affect your training targets vs. results?!

[Livio Livius]

For parity of Perceived Effort, at higher levels, do you see differences between rowing and cycling Watts

Yes, cycling I have a FTP around 250-260 watts for 45-60 min (around 4 w/kg). Cycling I do the intervals around 103-110% of FTP. Erg difficult to say. I take 2k time plus 5 or 10 sec which equals 200-220 watt. So a big difference.

[Livio Livius]

If you're using % of MHR to set the parameters of your intervals, bear in mind that posture affects HR during exercise. It's typically lower in rowing than it is when cycling, largely because more of you is upright in a normal cycling position and your heart is working harder against gravity. How much of a difference there is no one really knows for sure. Studies that have been published tend to have small test groups that may not be representative of any given person's characteristics. Here's a link to one comparing erging to treadmill running, in which you're even more upright than when cycling:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558615

It looked at older men, which I think is a plus in this situation. It found an average difference of around 6 bpm at maximum HR and around 9 bpm at a rather arbitrarily defined value for lactate threshold.

Let's say for purposes of argument that your max HR when cycling is 180 bpm. 90% of that is 162 bpm. Let's say for purposes of argument that your max HR when rowing is 5 bpm lower on an erg, or 175 bpm. If you try to row at 162 bpm, i.e. the 90% value from your cycling, you'll be at close to 93% of your equipment-specific max. Taking posture into account, your 90% rate on an erg is more like 157-158 bpm.

See how this sort of posture effect might affect your training targets vs. results?!

Good suggestion. Maybe I will do 2k all out next week to see max HR is. At this moment focus on increasing volume, 3x times a week 45 min low rate steady below VT1. Running injury at this moment so more focus on cycling 10 hours / wk and swimming 2 hours.

[Allan Olesen]

Yes, cycling I have a FTP around 250-260 watts for 45-60 min (around 4 w/kg). Cycling I do the intervals around 103-110% of FTP. Erg difficult to say. I take 2k time plus 5 or 10 sec which equals 200-220 watt. So a big difference.

If you have the results from two or more all-out ergometer efforts between 3 and 20 minutes in duration, I can make a shot at calculating your ergometer CP from the Monod equation. That would probably be more reliable than just adding seconds to your 2k time.

[lindsayh]

Good suggestion. Maybe I will do 2k all out next week to see max HR is. At this moment focus on increasing volume, 3x times a week 45 min low rate steady below VT1. Running injury at this moment so more focus on cycling 10 hours / wk and swimming 2 hours.

You will need to go for longer than 2k to get close to MHR - at least 5k flat out.

[Livio Livius]

You will need to go for longer than 2k to get close to MHR - at least 5k flat out.

Why if I may ask? Are you referring to cycling CP20 test as 5k on rower comes close to this?

[lindsayh]

You will need to go for longer than 2k to get close to MHR - at least 5k flat out.

Why if I may ask? Are you referring to cycling CP20 test as 5k on rower comes close to this?

No knowledge of cycling - its just that 2k TT isn't really long enough for a relatively fit rower OTE to get to MHR even at high intensity. The classic VO2 max session is 7/8x 4'/1'R with each one faster than the previous to max. An all out 5k+ will get pretty close too of course.

[bob01]

Hi..

I found max HR to be higher on erg rower than bike ... more muscles??

On these sets You are looking for a pace between VO2 max (2k pace ish) and threshold (FTP?) probably near 10k pace!!

He also suggests this range over max efforts

Don't forget most of his suggested work is significantly slower than this <65% of HRR

[Livio Livius]

Don't forget most of his suggested work is significantly slower than this <65% of HRR

Are you sure. In his polarzied model he is doing 80% in zone 1 and 2 which is (average) 65-70% max HR.

[Allan Olesen]

Don't forget most of his suggested work is significantly slower than this <65% of HRR

Are you sure. In his polarzied model he is doing 80% in zone 1 and 2 which is (average) 65-70% max HR.

There is no contradiction here.

Unless you have a very low resting HR, 65-70% of max. HR is less than 65% of HRR.