Technique/Initiating stroke with back

[agitator]

Hey!
I’ll try to get some video tomorrow. What’s the best way to do it? YouTube?

[Citroen]

YouTube (camera from one side of the ergo, so we can see the full length of your stroke - side on) and post the link on here is best.

[hobbit]

Keep in mind that there are different "styles" of rowing, some of which involve the back (aka "trunk") earlier than others.

Thanks very much for this post. I haven't seen it previously.

I presume that all these styles are used by top class OTW rowers of different "schools", am I right?

It is a good antidote to the "this is the only way to do it" that we often see here.

[Ombrax]

I presume that all these styles are used by top class OTW rowers of different "schools", am I right?

This is the original document (with more details):

http://www.biorow.com/Papers_files/2006 ... hanics.pdf

[gooseflight]

Keep in mind that there are different "styles" of rowing, some of which involve the back (aka "trunk") earlier than others.

Thanks very much for this post. I haven't seen it previously.

I presume that all these styles are used by top class OTW rowers of different "schools", am I right?

It is a good antidote to the "this is the only way to do it" that we often see here.

As with most things you follow the 'rules' to start with then develop your own style. In my opinion the advice given here is fine for starters. It would be unnecessarily complicated to explain nuanced rowing styles to newbies.

Leading with the legs is >always< a good thing. It's then just question of how soon the back/trunk is introduced to the drive.

In terms of the OP, I don't think the styles pointed to by Ombrax are relevant [yet]. His issue is more fundamental in that he leads with back and the legs come later.

[hjs]

Keep in mind that there are different "styles" of rowing, some of which involve the back (aka "trunk") earlier than others.

Thanks very much for this post. I haven't seen it previously.

I presume that all these styles are used by top class OTW rowers of different "schools", am I right?

It is a good antidote to the "this is the only way to do it" that we often see here.

As with most things you follow the 'rules' to start with then develop your own style. In my opinion the advice given here is fine for starters. It would be unnecessarily complicated to explain nuanced rowing styles to newbies.

Leading with the legs is >always< a good thing. It's then just question of how soon the back/trunk is introduced to the drive.

In terms of the OP, I don't think the styles pointed to by Ombrax are relevant [yet]. His issue is more fundamental in that he leads with back and the legs come later.

Indeed, nomatter what style, its never the back/arms that should be leading, its always trying to get big muscles doing the work. Styles can differ a lot. A nice example is the New Sealand double, super succesfull duo, working together loke a clock, but if you seen them on the erg.....so different.

https://youtu.be/GclkKBVJqu8

[agitator]

thanks again for all the comments. To continue the discussion on technique, do you find it useful to use the force curve? for someone who does not row otw, does it matter if it is not completely "pretty" and without bumps. it seems that when i really get after it, the curve gets some glitches in it. should i just focus on the stroke that gives the best watts or strive for a smooth curve as well?

[hjs]

thanks again for all the comments. To continue the discussion on technique, do you find it useful to use the force curve? for someone who does not row otw, does it matter if it is not completely "pretty" and without bumps. it seems that when i really get after it, the curve gets some glitches in it. should i just focus on the stroke that gives the best watts or strive for a smooth curve as well?

First look at your paces and how it feels on your body.

Strokeprofile very much depends on dragfactor. Set it high and you get a nice fat round one. Which is not sustainable for a longer row.

I myself, ignore it.

[Ombrax]

Re: the PM force curve display

As was pointed out above, where a basic technique is useful to get newbies on the right track, I think the force curve is also useful to them. If you see something with double / camel humps then you know something is awry and needs to be addressed. However, if you've been rowing for a long time and have honed in on something that works well for you to the point where you're capable of pulling @ a 1:45 pace all day long, then it probably isn't as important.

[agitator]

So here's the video on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCLKFjTcl4

edit. forgot to mention, this was 19spm and 210-220 Watts.

[hjs]

So here's the video on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCLKFjTcl4

edit. forgot to mention, this was 19spm and 210-220 Watts.

Looks pretty ok to me, yes there is some backaction early in, but nothing major. Pretty good base to work from.

You could do a few things, at the start of the stroke, have you weight on the balls of the feet. This gets your legs in the strongest position.
You could do some strapless work, this will make you finish stronger.
Low rate work is fine and should be your breath and butter, but also do some higher rate work, think r24, for a bigger guy this will help you burn extra energy, going up and down the slide.

For the rest.... Meters, meters, meters..

[agitator]

Thanks man!
This forum is great. I used to think I was supposed to transmit power to the footplate through my heels. Always felt a bit off.

Yeah, I hear you about the higher rating.. need to drop another 10-15 kg and hover around 100kg. Think that will help with the times i can generate in 2k to 5k? I know it will improve vo2max per kg but does that make any diff in rowing? In powerlifting extra mass is a huge benefit for leverages...

[gooseflight]

Not bad at all. Like a lot of guys with a belly your arms go over/between your knees rather than around the outside. This is inevitable because it's uncomfortable rowing with your knees together because your belly gets a squeeze on every stroke. Something to monitor and alter when the weight comes off.

[hjs]

Thanks man!
This forum is great. I used to think I was supposed to transmit power to the footplate through my heels. Always felt a bit off.

Yeah, I hear you about the higher rating.. need to drop another 10-15 kg and hover around 100kg. Think that will help with the times i can generate in 2k to 5k? I know it will improve vo2max per kg but does that make any diff in rowing? In powerlifting extra mass is a huge benefit for leverages...

Not directly, but dead weight, in rowing, does nothing for us. The real fast guys, are tall, not overly heavy, but simply monsterly fit.
On the erg you do see some bigger guys being pretty fast, but in general, to be fast, you have to train a lot and simply doing that will drop the weight
So simply put, if your weight drops due to your training, you will get a good bit faster, no doubt.

[agitator]

So here's the video on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCLKFjTcl4

edit. forgot to mention, this was 19spm and 210-220 Watts.

Looks pretty ok to me, yes there is some backaction early in, but nothing major. Pretty good base to work from.

You could do a few things, at the start of the stroke, have you weight on the balls of the feet. This gets your legs in the strongest position.
You could do some strapless work, this will make you finish stronger.
Low rate work is fine and should be your breath and butter, but also do some higher rate work, think r24, for a bigger guy this will help you burn extra energy, going up and down the slide.

For the rest.... Meters, meters, meters..

Hi again,
Regarding this last comment about meters, meters, meters. I agree. Could i ask for your advice on how to best do that? Should i base my ss sessions at 50-65% of FTP, if that is roughly defined by my 5k pace (19:30ish) in watts about 220W. Thus my ss would be between 110 w and 143 w or is that too slow? I have done a HM at this pace but that was really, really boring, HR was around 120 the whole time and my highest hr on the rower has been about 170-172.

maffetone formula says i should go for 180 minus age on all sports to get max aerobic effect, that would mean 139 for me and a pace of about 2:05ish. is that too fast?

Like I wrote earlier, i read this 80/20 training book that advocated this very low pace (as % of FTP for cycling) for the majority of training for endurance sports but an indoor rower for 5-7 hours per week at such low levels seems like a pretty bleak idea..