I think I'm starting to get it...

[dailob]

For those of you that remember, I first posted my thread about 6 days ago here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=184900

Received a lot, and I mean a lot, of great responses (thank you all and for being patient!) that my first row a few days after reading and responding to the posts, I knew I wanted to see if I could row (I thought about strapless but I was stubborn and went strapped) by using my arms as a way to "brake", decrease my rate and to really see what efficient rowing feels like:

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/36083701

At 24 min 5K wasn't something I was happy about but at least I was able to decrease my rate. Two days later this morning I already had it in mind to go two 5k rounds. Since I got how to decrease my rate, I figured it was time to see what a faster /500m pace felt like. My goals were to figure out what "long strokes" felt like, making sure I work on technique, and trying to get an idea of what "wasted energy" feels like and/or not having "wasted energy" feels like such as using the straps to bring myself back to the catch:

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/36083702

Needless to say, I was very happy to get close to a 2:00min /500m pace! There were a few times I was under 2min for a good few drives!

There was something I guess I didnt take into account after rowing all these times. I workout in a 1 car garage (~10'x~18') and I row in the middle of my unfinished platform https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7923/4460 ... 034b_b.jpg (unfinished platforms suit weightlifting movements better) and the erg actually fell off at the last 15 meters lol.

So that got me thinking that perhaps, another reason where there may be wasted energy is that the erg is sliding! I reinforced the rear of the erg as shown in the above pic and shown below is the 2nd of my planned 5k for the morning

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/36083703

I can't entirely attribute the faster pace due to the reinforced erg but it definitely helped!

So I'm going to fire off a few thoughts and thank you for bearing with me as I'm still trying to get better:

• I think I understand that having a long row is the continued resistant feeling of the chain as you drive. I came to this conclusion because throughout the 40+ minutes of rowing, I was staring at the monitor and noticed that when there's less resistance, my pace was slower. Please correct me if I'm wrong
• A few hours later as I'm typing this, I noticed that my lower back is a little sore. Is this normal for beginner rowers, or am i using my back too much?
• Body proportions matter right? A person with longer legs will have a much faster pace than someone with shorter legs is my thinking.
• Lastly, (at least for now lol) does it matter if my legs are | | vs my legs \ / ? I ask because there were a few times where I had to adjust a part of me that I felt was squished as I'm in the catch position. I mean it didnt feel like I got kicked kind of feeling but it certainly isn't something I want to feel every time for the next 20+ minutes...kind of a body proportion question I suppose - I have thick thighs

Thank you all so much for those who responded in my first thread, and thank you to all for reading up until this far and planning on responding!!

[Dangerscouse]

So I'm going to fire off a few thoughts and thank you for bearing with me as I'm still trying to get better:

• I think I understand that having a long row is the continued resistant feeling of the chain as you drive. I came to this conclusion because throughout the 40+ minutes of rowing, I was staring at the monitor and noticed that when there's less resistance, my pace was slower. Please correct me if I'm wrong
• A few hours later as I'm typing this, I noticed that my lower back is a little sore. Is this normal for beginner rowers, or am i using my back too much?
• Body proportions matter right? A person with longer legs will have a much faster pace than someone with shorter legs is my thinking.
• Lastly, (at least for now lol) does it matter if my legs are | | vs my legs \ / ? I ask because there were a few times where I had to adjust a part of me that I felt was squished as I'm in the catch position. I mean it didnt feel like I got kicked kind of feeling but it certainly isn't something I want to feel every time for the next 20+ minutes...kind of a body proportion question I suppose - I have thick thighs

I'm not sure what you mean in Q1. The pace is measured by the spinning of the flywheel so if there's more drag it slows down quicker and it will take more power to get it back to a faster speed, and the contrary when there is lower drag. Your pace will be slower due to you rowing with less power, either at a lower or higher stroke rate.

Lower back pain can be normal for a beginner and also for lower rates if you are used to higher strokes as it takes more power to row at the same pace with less strokes per minute. It could also very probably mean that your technique needs some adjustment, which is very likely as a beginner.

Longer legs, and arms, definitely help but they don't guarantee a faster pace. I know of at least three very strong rowers who are 5'9" / 5'10" and they are far faster than me and I'm 6'4". There are also genetics, general aerobic fitness, experience and willingness to suffer to consider too.

Your legs should be straight as you are leaking power with splayed legs. Your drive will not be as efficient, but it's not that much of an issue if it feels more comfortable.

Some good progress made already so it's looking promising for you.

[jackarabit]

By Jove, I think e’s got it!

Av power (183watts)/true rate (22.6spm)=8.1W’ per stroke. 2’/500m pace isn’t very far away on 5k distance @ low rate and reasonable power in the stroke.

[dailob]

I'm not sure what you mean in Q1. The pace is measured by the spinning of the flywheel so if there's more drag it slows down quicker and it will take more power to get it back to a faster speed, and the contrary when there is lower drag. Your pace will be slower due to you rowing with less power, either at a lower or higher stroke rate.

Your legs should be straight as you are leaking power with splayed legs. Your drive will not be as efficient, but it's not that much of an issue if it feels more comfortable.

Some good progress made already so it's looking promising for you.

Thanks for the compliment!

regarding question Q1, there were a few times where when the chain was being pulled, there wasnt resistance in the same way as there is resistance when you first start rowing. i noticed that my time suffered when there was less resistance from point A to B vs my time improving/consistent when there was resistance from the same point A to B.

we may be saying more or less the same thing, but forgive me if i'm not explaining things correctly or using the right terminology.

regarding the legs being straight vs. splayed, it's only in the catch position that i'm asking about. when driving, my legs are straight.

By Jove, I think e’s got it!

Av power (183watts)/true rate (22.6spm)=8.1W’ per stroke. 2’/500m pace isn’t very far away on 5k distance @ low rate and reasonable power in the stroke.

many thanks for your replies in my first thread!

so as long as i have a high watt per stroke, my strokes can be as many as i want, correct? i mean i'm not going to start trying to perform 300/30 starting tomorrow but i just wanted to get an understanding if efficiency is entirely dependent on watts per stroke, and nothing else.

is there a record for the highest Watts per stroke? just curious lol

[hjs]

Re highest watts. The best sprinters pull around 1.01 pace at max speed, do the math

[jamesg]

if efficiency is entirely dependent on watts per stroke

Efficiency would be Net work to handle / total work, and is linked to rating, posture and stroke sequences.

Watt/Rating = Work done per stroke = average handle force x net stroke length. It's a useful index of stroke quality.

there wasn't resistance in the same way as there is resistance when you start.

According to Newton, resistance is equal to the force we apply (action and reaction are equal and opposite). This is true for inertial loads too, as in the case of the C2 flywheel.
With inertial loads, the applied force causes acceleration as to F=ma or the equivalent for rotation.

To feel more resistance, pull harder and faster. Drag and the recovery time let us adjust the speed of the flywheel at the catch; if this is fast, we have to move fast too. Some like to pull slow and hard, but this is not rowing: boats go fast. Standard rowing style as shown by C2 allows this. On the erg the catch is taken with the legs, since these have large muscles that can move our entire body mass with high acceleration.

[jackarabit]

Dailob writes:

. . . i just wanted to get an understanding if efficiency is entirely dependent on watts per stroke, and nothing else.

Economy of effort or energy investment is characteristic of an efficient process. Short stroke sprinting piles up the watts output but isn’t particularly efficient in terms of conservation of energy (fuel). On the erg, the PM isn’t even capable of recording the work done hauling the body back and forth on the rail. My answers are no and anything but entirely dependent upon. But watts/stroke attests average power creation and higher wattage is more power and more power more work done. Bigger payload further and faster is the gold standard whatever the fizzix.

[Dangerscouse]

so as long as i have a high watt per stroke, my strokes can be as many as i want, correct?

Yeah, if you can maintain a stroke rate then there is no limit on what it should be, although the vast majority of people will probably struggle to maintain a rate over 32ish for a long time, albeit Rod, manages to hold r34 for ages.

The main aim is staying injury free and realising your potential, so drag factor and rates aren't counted when it's all said and done.

[Remo]

if efficiency is entirely dependent on watts per stroke

Efficiency would be Net work to handle / total work, and is linked to rating, posture and stroke sequences.

Watt/Rating = Work done per stroke = average handle force x net stroke length. (Emphasis added) It's a useful index of stroke quality.

The Equation is exactly right. And if you use ErgData, you can put "Average Power" into one of the Wigit Boxes. And if you keep your stroke length constant (which I do except for sprinting) you can just monitor Average Power. Saves having to do math in your head to do watts/stroke while rowing.

[Allan Olesen]

And if you use ErgData, you can put "Average Power" into one of the Wigit Boxes. And if you keep your stroke length constant (which I do except for sprinting) you can just monitor Average Power. Saves having to do math in your head to do watts/stroke while rowing.

You mean "Average Force", right?

At least that is the metric I am using as a workaround, in lack of a proper energy per stroke metric.

[Remo]

And if you use ErgData, you can put "Average Power" into one of the Wigit Boxes. And if you keep your stroke length constant (which I do except for sprinting) you can just monitor Average Power. Saves having to do math in your head to do watts/stroke while rowing.

You mean "Average Force", right?

At least that is the metric I am using as a workaround, in lack of a proper energy per stroke metric.

My bad , I meant "Average Force"

[gooseflight]

Solid progress

Re https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7923/4460 ... 034b_b.jpg

How do you not slam into the wall at the finish?